Career ending mistake?

[Craig.]

I thought the B1 was multi crew. So it aint just one guy but the guy who should have cross checked it too.

[Hagar]

I thought the B1 was multi crew. So it aint just one guy but the guy who should have cross checked it too.

Captain's responsibility. That's what he gets paid for.

[Woodlouse2002]

Doesn't the B1 have a co-pilot? If so what was he doing when the system checks were being ignored?

[Hagar]

Doesn't the B1 have a co-pilot? If so what was he doing when the system checks were being ignored?

As I said, it's the Captain's responsibility. Seems to me that he ran a pretty slack ship.

[beefhole]

Doesn't the B1 have a co-pilot? If so what was he doing when the system checks were being ignored?

As I said, it's the Captain's responsibility. Seems to me that he ran a pretty slack ship.

Be careful with that one Doug, that's jumping far too quickly to broad, sweeping conclusions about character.

[Willit Run]

Damn, I think there something I forgot to do!!  

 Oh, Well it will come to me later.

SCREEEEEEECCCCCHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

 Oh, Yeah check to make sure landing gear is in the down position!!

[RitterKreuz]

Im not sure how the USAF manuals read on responsibility and authority of the pilot on command, but most books for multi crew operations say its standard operating proceedure for "it is the responsibility of the non flying pilot AKA additional crew member AKA second in command to offer up any information regarding the safety of and the normal conduct of the flight" failure to say "hey captain your about to belly us in" is in essence neglecting ones responsibilities as SIC.

There are some situations that the SIC wouldnt be held accountable for that the PIC would be... but gearing her up isnt one of those situations. I can guarantee you - regardless of if it was my leg or the captains leg on the trip - regardless of who is at the controls - if we geared one of the company planes up onto the runway we would be held jointly accountable for that action, and thats a fact!

short answer - when you F*ck up, you f*ck up as a crew. there are no grey lines in the book about who is responsible for what and when they are responsible for it... without regard to who is SIC or PIC

[RitterKreuz]

http://www.gasco.org.uk/pages/news_item ... PageID=302

bit of info from the accident report

[expat]

A guy makes a thousand perfect landings and everyone always remembers the one "oops".  But this one is a BIG oops!

You are only as good as your last fuck up

Matt

[Hagar]

As I said, it's the Captain's responsibility. Seems to me that he ran a pretty slack ship.

Be careful with that one Doug, that's jumping far too quickly to broad, sweeping conclusions about character.

Maybe so but I think this confirms my suspicions. From RitterKruez's link:

Investigators found it was pilot error that led to the 8th May 2006 gear-up landing of a B-1 Lancer in Southwest Asia. The final report shows that the pilot unexpectedly gave control to the co-pilot on the final approach. The pilot told the tower the gear was down, despite the fact that the descent/before landing checklist was never completed -- and worse, the landing gear was never lowered. The red warning light in the gear handle --indicating all landing gear was NOT down and locked -- was ON for more than 4 minutes during the approach and the three "gear down" green lights were NOT illuminated. It slid 7,500 feet on its belly and engine pods. Contributing factors were the co-pilot's over-saturation and urgency to complete a long mission; both pilots' inattention to instrument readings and the descent/before landing checklist, and the co-pilot's false belief the pilot had lowered the landing gear.

RitterKruez said:

Im not sure how the USAF manuals read on responsibility and authority of the pilot on command, but most books for multi crew operations say its standard operating proceedure for "it is the responsibility of the non flying pilot AKA additional crew member AKA second in command to offer up any information regarding the safety of and the normal conduct of the flight" failure to say "hey captain your about to belly us in" is in essence neglecting ones responsibilities as SIC.

That's all very well in theory but the Captain is not forced to take any notice of his crew. I've read of several incidents where the SIC was scared stiff of suggesting anything in case he got his head bitten off & a bad report. This was with a well-known civil airline where some senior captains were treated as gods & their second pilots depended on them for a good report to further their careers & hopefully become gods themselves. I'm sure the same sort of thing goes on in the services.

If a crew is used to ignoring checklists & warning signals there is bound to be an accident at some time. It's inevitable. It's the Captain's responsibility to make sure that procedures are carried out correctly, hence my remark that he ran a slack ship. I stand by that opinion & have to wonder what else was ignored by this officer & his crew.

[Chris_F]

[quote]
My weird school of thought on this is;

[Hagar]

[quote]If you do throw the book at the guy just think of what that'll do to the morale of all the other pilots.

[expat]

My weird school of thought on this is;  This guy is much more likely to NOT commit such an error, as the guy who's never messed up. I'd put him right back in the left seat.

I agree with your weird school of thought and have an even weirder one:

If you do throw the book at the guy just think of what that'll do to the morale of all the other pilots.  Now they all know that if they make a similar mistake there is no leniency, they lose their jobs, their career, and they go to jail.  They don't get to see their family again for a long time, their family also gets thrown in to the poor house.

That group of pilots is going to be so hyper paranoid they're going to be making all kinds of mistakes.  Try this:  Don't think of a green chair.  Are any of you successful in NOT thinking of a green chair?  No?  well, imagine that same thing only with a couple hundred tons of airplane moving at a couple hundred miles per hour, and instead of green chairs, the thing that's tatoo'd on your brain is "don't screw up".  You're GOING to screw up!

I'd give the guy a probationary period.  Maybe make him fly right seat for a month, then left seat with a senior right seater reporting on him for another month.  If he does okay under the magnifying glass then put him back in the game like nothing ever happened.

Mistakes happen.  It's what we do about mistakes that determines whether we'll be successful or a failure.

I have to say, that I agree with both points, however after 20 years in aviation, I have noticed one thing, pilot or mechanic, mistakes don't happen. You are not allowed to make a mistake. If you do, you pay and pay big. If you are lucky you will not have killed anyone.  

Pilot or Mechanic = Production line robot. There is no room for error, error is not tolerated. If you make a mistake it travels with you forever. The aircraft industry is too small to hide in a corner and think that your "mistake" will be forgotten. If you are lucky, it will only pop its head up now and then. If you are really unlucky it will be on the internet or used as an example of what not to do when you are on a course learning about a new aircraft or piece of equipment and you all get to have a laugh at some other poor crappity smackers bad day. Let us not forget gentlemen, it is only by the grace of your god that you at some point.....................

Matt

[Hagar]

[quote]I have to say, that I agree with both points, however after 20 years in aviation, I have noticed one thing, pilot or mechanic, mistakes don't happen. You are not allowed to make a mistake. If you do, you pay and pay big. If you are lucky you will not have killed anyone.

[Brett_Henderson]

I did qualify it as "weird" and "mine"