Tribute to those who have fallen.

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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Hagar » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:39 am

Glad you commented on this Matt. I don't need to watch the video as I can imagine what it's like. Someone on this forum was recently shouted down for mentioning not going in for tributes but he was only telling the truth. That is not our way. I think you'll find that patriotism is alive & well in this country although it tends to be understated. We respect our servicemen & women just as much as any other country & weep when they are killed or injured. We just don't make a song & dance about it.

Did anyone remember that yesterday was Battle of Britain Day? I haven't seen a post about it on this forum, except for in the Photos section. I think that goes to prove my point.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby expat » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:51 am

Glad you commented on this Matt. I haven't watched the video but can imagine what it's like. Someone on this forum was recently shouted down for mentioned not going in for tributes but he was only telling the truth. That is not our way. I think you'll find that patriotism is alive & well in this country although it tends to be understated. We respect our servicemen & women just as much as any other country & weep when they are killed or injured. We just don't make a song & dance about it.

Did anyone remember that yesterday was Battle of Britain Day? I haven't seen a post about it on this forum, except for in the Photos section. I think that goes to prove my point.



Yes you are right, but I think the stiff upper lip does get in the way sometimes. I personally don't go in for online tributes/grieving, I am a very private person. I suppose that this is reflected by what you said above, though I do not in anyway stand in front of anyone else who does or criticises them for doing so. I think that it is something that the internet lends itself to, purely because of the sort of medium that it is.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Hagar » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:05 am

Yes you are right, but I think the stiff upper lip does get in the way sometimes. I personally don't go in for online tributes/grieving, I am a very private person. I suppose that this is reflected by what you said above, though I do not in anyway stand in front of anyone else who does or criticises them for doing so.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I was never one for grieving in public which explains why I keep out of topics like this one. This country has changed out of all recognition from when I was young. We no longer go in for waving the flag & all that sort of thing. You would have a job defining what "being British" actually means these days. That is not necessarily a bad thing. IMHO

I'll have to be careful or this could turn political. That's the reason I stay out of these topics.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Romulus111VADT » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:06 am

I would just like to comment on this thread and please don't misunderstand me in any way, I am an ex-serviceman and did my part in the 90's, serving in two theaters..........admittedly, one was in a 4 star hotel and a sea crossing.......the difference between the army and the air force, we send our officers to do the real work. Anyway, I note that only American members have posted replies. The attitude towards the American serviceman by the American public seems to be very different to that of other nations armed forces and I am wondering why that is. In the UK, patriotic pride in the armed services is a very quiet and low key affair. Even to the point where the government will sometimes not have anything to do with the armed services in calibration for the fear of offending "someone"
Just a question and I am not looking to upset anyone here, but what/why/how do the US forces manage to get such patriotic feeling in it's country men?

Matt


Our government and the civilian population was allot like you describe after Vietnam. In fact, the discrimination against Nam Vets was so bad that laws making it illegal had to be passed.

Even today, some Nam Vets still experience discrimination and complete disrespect. Many are homeless, many by choice because they can't deal with society any longer. Many just commit suicide and do what we Nam Vets call "Alpha Mike Foxtrot" the world and join our buddies that we could count on.

The American public finally came to the realization that w/o these brave men and women. Without their willingness to work and risk their lives for a pittance of a wage. Without their willingness to give their very lives for our freedoms. We would not have these freedoms that so many people take for granted.

In the case of England, w/o your WWII Vets and American WWII Vets, Not to mention many other countries that sent their soldiers into the field to defeat a common foe. Instead of the Union Jack flying overhead, you'd have a Swastika.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Hagar » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:18 am

The American public finally came to the realization that w/o these brave men and women. Without their willingness to work and risk their lives for a pittance of a wage. Without their willingness to give their very lives for our freedoms. We would not have these freedoms that so many people take for granted.

In the case of England, w/o your WWII Vets and American WWII Vets, Not to mention many other countries that sent their soldiers into the field to defeat a common foe. Instead of the Union Jack flying overhead, you'd have a Swastika.

Just one more comment & I'll crawl back in my hole. I was born & still live in the south of England where much of the Battle of Britain was fought. This is also the area that would have been used for the invasion if it had not been stopped. Nobody needs to tell me what we owe our armed forces for saving us from that. What nobody seems to mention is that many of those were ordinary people who didn't want to be there. Ordinary men & women that were called up (drafted) with no choice but to go & do as they were ordered. This is not meant to take anything away from them as they were just as brave, if not more so, as those that volunteered.

I think this also applies to the Viet Nam vets. You can disagree vehemently with a war & your nation's participation in it but please don't blame the poor old ordinary soldier.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby C » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:12 am

To join in Matt and Doug's sub-discussion, I think a lot is down to corporate perception too. People don't see the armed forces normally. For example, when taking troops to the US or Canada, we'll often be at the terminal gate, just like any other airliner. Come to the UK, and it seems we often get put far away out of public view - even when terminal and ramp space is availble. It's also been heard of for the airports to get personnel to change out of uniform.

IMO, it's not an unpatriotic nation, but the PC, don't upset anyone attitude of the last 20 or so years has eroded out pride to the point that we're too concerned about upsetting and offending anyone. God forbid we upset Islamic fundamentalists in Sunningdale, the Aldermaston branch of CND, or Bradford WI... ::)
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Romulus111VADT » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:19 am

This is why I normally don't post tributes. I forget about the disrespect that Veterans of Vietnam and any war get on these forums. I promise you I'll never post anything again.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Hagar » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:31 am

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Jet Black1 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:29 am

This is why I normally don't post tributes. I forget about the disrespect that Veterans of Vietnam and any war get on these forums. I promise you I'll never post anything again.

Alpha Mike Foxtrot

No one should stop posting Tributes like yours.

What you have to understand is that it makes people think about things they have seen and heard so most people see the same thing in a different way.

So Please do not stop posting!
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Romulus111VADT » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:43 am

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.


The comments about WWII for one- my grandfather was there and fought for your country.

You speak of those who didn't really want to fight, but had too-
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A supplemental Draft Registration that was used in case the US ran out of young men. Do you realize what this implies? The US was willing to sacrifice all it's young men for the war.

The comments on Vietnam and remarks made in the past by many other forum members just make it not worth the hassles I go through to post these things. So I simply will not bother again.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Jet Black1 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:52 am

And thats why you need to post things like that.
I can tell you for a fact that 95% of the people will like posts like your Tribute.
So to H#ll with the other 5%!!!
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Hagar » Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:59 am

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.


The comments about WWII for one- my grandfather was there and fought for your country.

You speak of those who didn't really want to fight, but had too-
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A supplemental Draft Registration that was used in case the US ran out of young men. Do you realize what this implies? The US was willing to sacrifice all it's young men for the war.

The comments on Vietnam and remarks made in the past by many other forum members just make it not worth the hassles I go through to post these things. So I simply will not bother again.

Well this is what I actually said. I don't understand how anyone could take it as being disrespectful.
[glow=yellow,2,300]What nobody seems to mention is that many of those were ordinary people who didn't want to be there. Ordinary men & women that were called up (drafted) with no choice but to go & do as they were ordered. This is not meant to take anything away from them as they were just as brave, if not more so, as those that volunteered.[/glow]

I don't know if your grandfather volunteered or was drafted. It doesn't really matter as I'm pretty certain he would have preferred to be somewhere else. It's politicians that make war but the ordinary people that have to go & fight their battles for them.

He was fighting for the future of the whole world, not just my country. I wonder what he & his mates would think of the mess we made of it. Before you take that as another insult, my late father-in-law was fighting alongside them & I know what he thought about it.
Last edited by Hagar on Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby expat » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:09 am

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.


The comments about WWII for one- my grandfather was there and fought for your country.

You speak of those who didn't really want to fight, but had too-
Image
A supplemental Draft Registration that was used in case the US ran out of young men. Do you realize what this implies? The US was willing to sacrifice all it's young men for the war.

The comments on Vietnam and remarks made in the past by many other forum members just make it not worth the hassles I go through to post these things. So I simply will not bother again.



Rom, you post what ever you want to. As I said the internet gives itself to this type of thing readily. Far more people can view that sort of thing than if you put a poster up to commemorate a particular day. As a Brit, we seem to do it differently and that was my question, not why do you do it in the manner you do, but why do we not. I myself am 5th generation military, possibly the last. It is today not a thing I would recommend to my children, however, if they made that choice, then they will have my full support.
An interesting point that you make is the continued view that the public has about Vietnam, after all a soldier is just a politicians tool he has no say in the matter. Do you think that in time (depending how long the job takes), Iraq veterans will be accepted as the very early Vietnam Vets where or will the tide of public opinion come full circle and nothing will have been learnt  by yours and others bad experiences post combat.

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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Jet Black1 » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:09 am

That's very true 8-)
We should put our leaders in and let them fight it out ;D
:oOh cr@p that means we would have to put GWB in :o
I would like to retract my last comment. :-X

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Re: Tribute to those who have fallen.

Postby Romulus111VADT » Tue Sep 16, 2008 11:20 am

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.


The comments about WWII for one- my grandfather was there and fought for your country.

You speak of those who didn't really want to fight, but had too-
Image
A supplemental Draft Registration that was used in case the US ran out of young men. Do you realize what this implies? The US was willing to sacrifice all it's young men for the war.

The comments on Vietnam and remarks made in the past by many other forum members just make it not worth the hassles I go through to post these things. So I simply will not bother again.

Well this is what I actually said. I don't understand how anyone could take it as being disrespectful.
[glow=yellow,2,300]What nobody seems to mention is that many of those were ordinary people who didn't want to be there. Ordinary men & women that were called up (drafted) with no choice but to go & do as they were ordered. This is not meant to take anything away from them as they were just as brave, if not more so, as those that volunteered.[/glow]

I don't know if your grandfather volunteered or was drafted. It doesn't really matter as I'm pretty certain he would have preferred to be somewhere else. It's politicians that make war but the ordinary people that have to go & fight their battles for them.

He was fighting for the future of the whole world, not just my country. I wonder what he & his mates would think of the mess we made of it. Before you take that as another insult, my late father-in-law was fighting alongside them & I know what he thought about it.

My grandfather was ...lmao...frankly, weird, at times he reminded me of Patton. Though I admired him immensely, he could be a complete jerk.....lmao. As to what he'd think of today's society. He'd be totally discusted and wonder why so many good men died for it.

No disrespect intended. This is why I usually keep my big mouth shut as I realise any comments I make will be taken the wrong way. Post as many tributes as you like. I'll keep quiet in future.

PS. Please show me where anyone has said something disrespectful in this topic.


The comments about WWII for one- my grandfather was there and fought for your country.

You speak of those who didn't really want to fight, but had too-
Image
A supplemental Draft Registration that was used in case the US ran out of young men. Do you realize what this implies? The US was willing to sacrifice all it's young men for the war.

The comments on Vietnam and remarks made in the past by many other forum members just make it not worth the hassles I go through to post these things. So I simply will not bother again.



Rom, you post what ever you want to. As I said the internet gives itself to this type of thing readily. Far more people can view that sort of thing than if you put a poster up to commemorate a particular day. As a Brit, we seem to do it differently and that was my question, not why do you do it in the manner you do, but why do we not. I myself am 5th generation military, possibly the last. It is today not a thing I would recommend to my children, however, if they made that choice, then they will have my full support.
An interesting point that you make is the continued view that the public has about Vietnam, after all a soldier is just a politicians tool he has no say in the matter. Do you think that in time (depending how long the job takes), Iraq veterans will be accepted as the very early Vietnam Vets where or will the tide of public opinion come full circle and nothing will have been learnt
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