The right to die

[Craig.]

[quote]What I believe Doug was referring to was the starvation aspect.

[Woodlouse2002]

A dog in that state would be allowed to die. So would anything else. If you kept any animal alive when it was in that condition you would have the animal rights mob on you within minutes. This woman cannot see, hear, move or eat. She has to be fed through a tube and she should not be alive. Her state will never improve so why keep her like this? Even if she is capable of consious thought after 15 years i'd be more than ready to quit.

[Hagar]

Just to clarify my point. Starving me to death would be cruel enough. Keeping me alive when I have no chance of anything resembling a decent quality of life as we understand it (a vegetative state) I find quite obscene, especially if this goes against my wishes & everything I believe in.

Even DOGS would be put down humanely.

Exactly.

[jordonj]

I'm sure this thread will be locked in time, even though I know Jordon didn't intend this to turn into a flame war.

Thank you Ben!

Just for the record...this was to be about our own wishes and not to turn into a debate about Terry Schavio...

[Ben_M_K]

Well as for my wishes...

It depends. In Terry's case, some people say she has a chance to recover and make improvements. I would want to be kept alive in that instance, but if I was for sure going to be like that forever, then I would want to die. At least I think. If I really had to make that choice, I would have to think and pray long and hard about it.

[Woodlouse2002]

When you have someone in a state like that and you want them to live there will always be someone saying something you want to hear. I'm sure there is a chance of her recovering. But if for 15 years there's been no improvement, then you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Saitek]

It is my opinion that the doctors and or Michael are guilty of manslaughter and/or murder if she dies.

[jordonj]

This is a complicated issue and there are strong emotions on both sides.  I am glad that this has not turned into an insult war (I'm on the Mod "bad-boy" list as it is)...

Some more stories...meant as food for thought:

I know a Social Worker who has worked with the terminally ill.  There are stories of Hospice giving more morphine to hasten the death and end suffering, but it was not this hospice.  They were very stingy with the morphine and other painkillers.  They were very careful not to allow the dosages become life-threatening...even if this meant the person had to suffer.  "Please, don't tell me you manage pain through medication." she said to the administrator one day.

I cannot tell you the number of residents in nursing homes that get no visitors and are barely reactive, and on feeding...sometimes, the families ask the tubes to be removed or when they come out (they do wear out and fall out), ask that they not be reinserted.  A lot of people go on for years..forgotten.

In one case, a 92-year old woman on dialysis wanted her treatment stopped.  A psychiatrist was called in to declare her incompetent.  He went in to interview her.  He asked her why she wanted to end treatment.  She told him that this was not the life she wanted.  She was ruining the lives of her sister (who was two years older and caring for her), and the lives of her children.  The psychiatrist pointed out that this amounted to suicide (she was Catholic).  The woman laughed and said "we took it out of God's hands when we began this treatment...I just want to put it back into God's hands...now don't get me wrong, I don't want to die."  The psychiatrist nodded and left.  The woman asked if he was going to declare her incompetent.  "No" he replied "I'm going to tell them that they should respect your wishes".

On the other side of the issue.  I know of three cases where a debilitated person had to fight tooth and nail because they wanted to live.  One was a person with ALS (a.k.a. Lou Gehrig's disease) who wanted to be kept alive in order to see his daughter graduate.  Time and time again, social services tried to cut off his benefits because he could get around.  The other two involved brain-stem strokes:  If they don't kill you, you get locked-in syndrome.  This consists of being immobile and unable to communicate, but aware.  They chose to live and also had to fight to get the care.  The insurance company of one of them said "she just has to die."

Several debilitated people fear that they will be pressured to die...this is a case with no easy answers...and little light at the end of the tunnel.

Again, this was not meant to be a debate on Terri Schavio's case, but there is a most even-handed account here.

[Ben_M_K]

It is my opinion that the doctors and or Michael are guilty of manslaughter and/or murder if she dies.

One sentence sums it all up. Bingo. You hit the nail on the head...

[chomp_rock]

Both my wife's and my current living wills state that if totally incapacitated and showing less than 35% of normal brain activity over a 3 day period pull the plug...

That pretty much states my view.

Terry Schaivo is right now nothing more than a financial and emotional burden on her Husband right now and since her parents lost all authority over her at age 18 they have no legal say (according to my sister who is a lawyer). Plus, no "miracle" is going to happen, she will never recover, even partially.

It makes me really mad that the government is stepping in on this as well, the US government is not here to make decisions in people's private matters but to govern the nation.

[Scottler]

Terry Schaivo is right now nothing more than a financial and emotional burden on her Husband right now and since her parents lost all authority over her at age 18 they have no legal say (according to my sister who is a lawyer). Plus, no "miracle" is going to happen, she will never recover, even partially.

It makes me really mad that the government is stepping in on this as well, the US government is not here to make decisions in people's private matters but to govern the nation.

While you'd be right in theory, Terri's family has paid all of her medical expenses.  Michael hasn't paid a dime.

As for governmental intervention, I disagree.  Article 3 gives the government the authority to step into matters such as these.   If I can find an exact quote for you, I'll edit .  lol

[StrutterGunner]

This is just a post to respectfully dispute some "facts" that were presented earlier on in this thread. No disrespect of insults intended to the poster.  


"Terri Schiavo is not in a coma.  She is not brain dead.  She is awake, her eyes are open, and she is able to communicate - albeit crudely - with her family. "

Yes, Terri Shiavo is not in a coma, and she is not brain dead. But there is no way you can call her "awake." Being in the persistant vegetative state that she is, her body goes through the normal sleep/waking cycles. Yes her eyes are open, but she cannot see, as the part of her brain that processes sight is now liquid. As for the "communication" people in this state make automatic groans and grunts all the time. To the uninformed, it can look like she is communicating. But it is just automatic impulses that whats left of her brain is sending out. Same with things such as smiles, or eye movement.

"Witnesses have reported under oath that they have fed Terri, and that she is capable of swallowing.  Judge Greer has refused swallowing tests, stating that if the tests are conducted, Terri could choke to death"

Ok then, lets say that Terri could actually swallow. What then? Could she get food herself? No. She would still need people to feed her, and there would still be the constant risk or her choking. How would this be any different from a feeding tube? You can still withdraw food and water, just as a feeding tube can be withdrawn.

"Dr. William Cheshire, a Mayo clinic expert neurologist, says that Terri is NOT in a persistant vegitative state, but in a minimal state of consciousness.  Two totally different things. "

Ok, a single doctor, out of dozens who say otherwise, has said this. But how did this doctor come to this conclusion? Tests? Nope. He simply sat by her bedside for a few minutes, and viewed the infamous videotape of a supposedly awake and aware Terri. While other doctors have completely and thoroughly examined her over the past 15 years and came to the same conclusion, that she is in a persistant vegetative state.

Other people (not just in this forum) have stated that Michael Shiavo will benefit by Terris death in the amount of over a million dollars. This is simply not true. 700 000 dollars of the legal settlement has already been spent to care for Terri. Michaels 300 000 dollars is gone by now, spent on what I dont know, but there is nothing financially to be gained now by letting her die.

And just an aside, I realize Terris parents are getting desparate at this point, but trying to convince the appeals court that Terri tried to say "I want to live" when the tube was pulled is just rediculous, and an insult to everyones intelligence.  The majority of her brian is now liquid, really only the brainstem functions now. Its just not possible.
(I realize I'm probobly going to get roasted  for this post, but it just bothers me when people all out ignore science to try and prove their own points. Well, heres where the fun begins)

[Scottler]

I'm not going to "roast" you.  You're entitled to your opinion.  Mine is based on three years of following this case very closely, doing my homework, and not listening to the mainstream media's slanted facts.

How you got your information, I don't know.  Mine was not nearly as thorough as it should have been, and I could easily contradict many of your claims.  (See www.terrisfight.org for more information)  At the time I wrote it, I had just gotten home from working all day in an ER, and I was on my way back out again for dinner.  lol  I'm not going to go into it any more, as my brain just can't take any more if it.  It sickens me.

Not to say that you're right, not to say that you're wrong.  The facts are out there.  That's all I ever intended my participation in this thread to be.  As they say...'sall good.

[TacitBlue]

The absolute and only thing I have to say on this issue is this: If she is consiouse (sp?) but unable to move, communticate, see, hear, or anything, she is probably insane by now. Wouldnt you be? Locked in your head, only your thoughts, no one to talk to. Bored out of your mind, lonely. Anyone would probably flip after 6 months. Think about 15 years! That would be Hell. I dont know the specifics of the shaivo case, but if I were in the situation I described above, I would definately be ready to die.

[StrutterGunner]

Well, I certainly havent followed the case for as long as you have, and if it seems like I was trying to discredit you and all of your knowledge on the case then I sincerely apologize. As for that site you mentioned, terrisfight.net, I had a good long look at it and you have to admit, it is extremely biased. Most if not all scientific evidence that disagrees with her parents position is not mentioned, only statements and beliefs of the very few doctors who agree with the schindlers position, and states beliefs under the headings "Fact" when in fact there is no proof either way on some of the things they are saying.