UK TV and hot kit

[Hagar]

*might be a spelling mistake there...

Hehe. It looks fine to me.

I suggest the public impression of all RAF pilots with F/O Kite moustaches is wrong. I think, at least where basic training was concerned, that much of it was carried out by civilian instructors at the Elementary Flying Training Schools. The DH Flying School at White Waltham, another one run by Phillips & Powis at Woodley & (of course) Marshall's of Cambridge spring to mind. http://www.f4aviation.co.uk/Hangar/2002/marshall/marshall.htm

I was rather surprised the pupils were in the front seat on the Tiger Moth. When I worked for Cecil Pashley* at the Southern Aero Club back in the 60s they always flew from the rear seat right from the start. When they were ready to go solo the instructor could get out & let them go. The Tiger is always flown solo from the rear seat.

* PS. Arguably the most experienced flying instructor in the world at that time. He taught RFC & RN pilots during WWI & RAF, FAA pilots in WWII.

[C]

I suggest the public impression of all RAF pilots with F/O Kite moustaches is wrong....

F/L Charlie Brown would have done nothing to dispel that myth (only 5 RAF instructors I have flown with have had regulation facial hair, sorry, that's 6... ):)

I was rather surprised the pupils were in the front seat on the Tiger Moth. When I worked for Cecil Pashley* at the Southern Aero Club back in the 60s they always flew from the rear seat right from the start. When they were ready to go solo the instructor could get out & let them go. The Tiger is always flown solo from the rear seat

Yes, true. I suppose they flew in the front for convenience sake, and to make Brendan O'Brian's life easier in the back. Never had the chance in a Tiger yet, tried to do conversion last year (well, 2002) but funds, lack of, prevented anything being arranged. Wanted to do it a Cambridge (nice airport - undulating runway I seem to remember!) strangely enough...

Also Hagar, I've heard Cecil Pashley's name mentioned often, but never really have found out anything about him. Where, if I may ask, would I find something to enlighten myself?

Charlie

[C]

Just one point, it was stated that ML407 was the only two seat Spit operational, but that's not true. Maybe it's the only duel control Spit (I should know this )

Nope, not true at all.

In the UK there is ML407, PT462 with Anthony Hodgson and MJ627 with the Bayliss' at East Kirkby (with raised rear cockpit). Also I think PV202 is being restored by HFL aftre its fatal accident at Goodwood...

In the US there is Tr. VIII MT818 (formerly G-AIDN -used to be Yellow I believe), Tr IX TE308 in Colorado and MJ772 in Arizona (although it may have moved recently - part of the Champlin collection). I think that's the on which has been reconverted to a single seater, but the cockpit has been left in the same place as a TR IX, ie about 12" forward than standard.

Off the top of my head that's all...

Charlie

[Hagar]

Also Hagar, I've heard Cecil Pashley's name mentioned often, but never really have found out anything about him. Where, if I may ask, would I find something to enlighten myself?

Sadly I haven't found much on this great aviator at all.
There is a section on him at the Museum in Shoreham High Street. I must go & check it out some time. Someone was supposed to be writing his biography but I don't know what happened to that. Surprisingly I believe his widow Vera is still alive. Maybe I should have written it. The only reason I didn't think of it is that I've never attempted anything of that importance.

I did find a site all about him once but that seems to be dead now. There is the odd reference in articles on other subjects like this one. http://shoreham.adur.org.uk/images/storyofshoreham/storyshoreham_0135.htm
The problem with a search is that comparatively recently the Shoreham Airport management decided to name the perimeter road after him as some sort of belated tribute to the man who helped found the airport. A lot of companies at the airport now have his name in their address.

I pinched this photo of Cecil Pashley & his brother Eric in the aircraft they built before WWI from the airport site. They used it for pleasure flying on Worthing Beach from about 1911 I think. On the outbreak of WWI Cecil became senior instructor at the Grahame White Flying School. Eric joined the RFC & was killed in action in 1917. "Pash" sometimes talked about him when we were able to have a quiet chat & always said he was the clever one. He obviously missed his elder brother even after all those years.


PS. That would be Cecil in the front. In all the time I knew him I never saw "Pash" fly a Tiger Moth solo or from the rear cockpit. He wan't very tall & had his own special seat & back cushion. At 6' 1" I towered over him, but the man was a giant in every other way. IMHO

[Hagar]

Just one point, it was stated that ML407 was the only two seat Spit operational, but that's not true. Maybe it's the only duel control Spit (I should know this )

I recorded it so I'll check this out. I'm sure they said something about it being the only airworthy 2-seat Spitfire that actually saw service in WWII. That would have been before it was converted to a 2-seater.

[C]

Now you mention it i'm fairly sure that was what was said...

However, looking at the others, MJ627 (the Bayliss' TrIX) was in service with 441sqn as an LF Mk.IX from 9/44 to 3/45 - in which capacity I don't know.

MJ772 (Champlin) was operational 341sqn  as Mk IX 1/44 til an accident, then with 340sqn 6/44 - 8/44

TE308 has no record of RAF service and was sold straight back to Vickers in 1950 - Converted to two seater G-AWGB and sold to IAC

PT462 (Hodgson) also served in the Med theatre in 1945 (253sqn)

Interesting...

Charlie

[Hagar]

[quote]Now you mention it i'm fairly sure that was what was said...

However, looking at the others, MJ627 (the Bayliss' TrIX) was in service with 441sqn as an LF Mk.IX from 9/44 to 3/45 - in which capacity I don't know.

MJ772 (Champlin) was operational 341sqn

[C]

Maybe these other examples aren't genuine factory converted 2-seat dual-controlled trainers

As far as I can see only PT462 is a modern conversion, done in the 80's by the late Charles Church. The other except MT818, which was made by Vickers as a proof of concept type aircraft seem to have been converted around 1950-51 for the Irish Air Corps

As this seems far better produced & researched than the average documentary I'm sure they would have checked their facts before making such a statement.

Quite so. I'm always aprehensive before watching documentaries of this type. On Monday however I was pleasantly suprised by the quality of both programmes. Long may it continue...

Anyway, shall we let them off with this one apparent mistake?

[HawkerTempest5]

Thanks for that info and the link Charlie. I was aware of all the other T-9's but the only reason I could think of for them making that statement was that maybe ML407 was the only one still with full duel control, however I did doubt that was the case.
I understand that HFL will use PV202 to instruct future Spitfire pilots.
The Bayliss' T-9 is looking very well. I was able to get a very close look at it at East Kirkby last summer.  

[C]

Thanks for that info and the link Charlie

You're welcome. Found it purely by accident trying to find a list of all the Arframes converted by Vickers...

I understand that HFL will use PV202 to instruct future Spitfire pilots.

I think that's the plan according to what I've seen in "Flypast" and "Aeroplane". I believe it's being restored to it IAC colours from the fifties. I think it will be useful in giving would be Spitfire pilots a bit of experience before allowing them off solo in a single seater. I think the closest they get now is a full throttle ground run with the tail tied down...

[quote]The Bayliss' T-9 is looking very well. I was able to get a very close look at it at East Kirkby last summer.

[C]

Anybody watch part two last night?

Very interesting, lots of interviews with BoB pilots (including Sir Christopher Foxley-Norris, who passed away recently - although he did look very ill). Intresting to hear one pilot (I think it may have been Pete Brothers or Geoffrey Wellum) talk about the mixed feelings of not "finishing off" a German aircraft and pilot - they could see it was going to be forced to ditch in the channel, yet they couldn't bring themselves to kill the pilot, who they suggested, went on to claim several more RAF kills having been rescued from the channel.

I can now see how they're making four programmes of the series. Shame John Sweet didn't go on to get the nine hours training too...

Charlie

[Hagar]

Anybody watch part two last night?

Yep. Well I watched most of it & recorded the whole thing for later.

Intresting to hear one pilot (I think it may have been Pete Brothers or Geoffrey Wellum) talk about the mixed feelings of not "finishing off" a German aircraft and pilot - they could see it was going to be forced to ditch in the channel, yet they couldn't bring themselves to kill the pilot, who they suggested, went on to claim several more RAF kills having been rescued from the channel.

I believe this was Bob Doe who was a Sergeant Pilot. I'm not sure if this would have affected his attitude. I was also interested to hear the opinions of a Luftwaffe pilot. All the veterans seem to agree on one thing above all else. War is a senseless & terrible thing. Geoffrey Wellum, whom I've come to admire tremendously since reading his book "First Light", makes some particularly cutting comments.

I think this series is particularly well made. The modern flying sequences are nicely balanced with comments from veterans, archive film & above all, the attention to historic detail. I find it hard to criticise which is unusual for me. It's a shame one of those young pilots had to lose out but they all knew this from the start. I picked the winner from the first episode & think they made the right choice.

[HawkerTempest5]

I have heared Bob Doe talk about the 109 incident before. Turns out the pilot was Galland's No2. After the War his wife wrote to Bob Doe thanking him for not killing her husband.
Although I enjoyed part two (I could listen to those brave old men talk for ever) I was a tad dissapointed that it did not have more of the two chaps learning how to handle ML407. I would have though the simulated engine faliure would have been worth seeing.
I agree with Hagar that they made the right choice when picking the lad who got through.

[C]

I believe this was Bob Doe who was a Sergeant Pilot.

Time for me  to go and get new memory...

Geoffrey Wellum, whom I've come to admire tremendously since reading his book "First Light", makes some particularly cutting comments.

I've picked it up Waterstones a couple of times, but haven't got round to buying it yet - I take it that it is well recommended?

I think this series is particularly well made

Yep. Got to agree. I think they've put a good balance of the flying of ML407, and the interviews, and they really couldn't have got any better interviewees. After the C4 Comet "documentary" last year I am very wary before this type of programme these days, but it's nice to pleasantly suprised.

Charlie

[ozzy72]

Charlie if you haven't read First Light, then its time to raid the piggy bank and get down to your nearest Waterstones of WHSmith and get it. I promise you that you won't regret it. I was caught by the missus at 3am in the bathroom reading it so as not to disturb her After a severe ear-bending she just gave up. I read it twice back-to-back in 72 hours. Awesome!

Ozzy