Dueling

[Mobius]

The Lighting was better than the F15 so I'm afriad Craig the F15 was outclassed even when new.

I don't really understand this, the F-15's operational range, altitude, speed, armament and avionics were/are better than the Lightnings, I don't think someone would develop a brand new fighter that was worse than what was already in service.


By the way Mistral, don't think I said it before but nice picture, that's the type of flying I do in FS all the time.

[Vic]

They better start building more and more SU35's or hope they dont come up against the Raptor or Typhoon.:)

Nah, we won't worry about it...I doubt that your pilots that took part in these simulations know how to fly our aircraft to even 1/2 their potential and I don't see any detailed specs on the Su-35...do you? If you do - I suggest you keep a low profile (Its classified material and will be for the next 8 years(atleast)) and I am not talking about the general specs...that doesn't say much.

One thing that you fail to recognize is that the Su-37 has 3D Thrust vectoring, not the older thrust vectoring systems that we have on the Su-27MKI's (Note, thats MKI and not MK1 --they are different aircraft, please don't confuse them...the MKI would get offended  :'( its like calling a 737NG a 737 Classic - kinda rude)
The Su-37 has been put into production but no chance of it being exported for another 8 years (at the least) unless they decide to downgrade the export versions (no need to do that, they can just sell some MKI's since the 37 is basically a further modified MKI and it would cost alot)
Please let me clear something up: many of you think that Russia and it's people are poor. I don't blame you for thinking these things, but please in the future, don't read as much biased western press...really ;D wake up: Khodorkovsky is a criminal (not a hero), Putin isn't a dictator (he finally got us back on our feet and regained control), the war in chechnya is OVER (and has been for about 2.5 years now), the chechen 'rebels' aren't rebels, they are terrorists (NOT the population of the republic - but those that feel the need to start a juhad against the wishes of the population of the republic are terrorists (our neighbours are from Chechenya - very nice people, they dispursed alot of myths that I had about the situation there) and last of all - we are not poor! There are many factors that those 'smart people' don't consider when they make such assumptions and state them as facts. (I'm sorry that I got us into politics, I just wanted to clear several myths about Russia since few of you have been here but many of you speak as if you live here and know all there is to know ;) In fact, I live here and I don't know all there is to know - but I guarantee you that I know more than most of you about my country ;D)
Our airforce isn't as bad or as underfunded as you think it is, our pilots are probably better trained than alot of the U.S. and Brittish pilots so lets not make assumptions without backing it up, allrigt? As they say: When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME!
By the way, India has frequent crashes due to poor maintanence, we rarely do. If you look at the ammount of crashes in peacetime that occur within the USAF and the Airforce of the Russian Federation, the USAF has way more crashes. The fact is, crashes occur when you have such a complex piece of machinery, its inevitable, all we can do is introduce systems that reduce the number of these occurances. In my opinion, the Su-37 is currently the best aircraft in the world, nobody comes close to it at the moment. That is not only my opinion but the opinion of many qualified people! Heck, the Americans themselves admitted that it is better than anything they have! Now regarding the F-22, let's wait and see, and ONLY then compare the aircraft...remember dont ASSUME. As a matter of fact, I myself considered going into the Air Force but decided not to...although this has to do with other factors (I lived in Canada for 7 years...this pretty much guarantes the fact that I would not climb any higher than a Senior Liutenant  >:(
Vic
P.S. I would be glad to clear up any 'myths' you have about Russia, feel free to PM or email! We are all here to learn.

[Craig.]

doubt that your pilots that took part in these simulations know how to fly our aircraft to even 1/2 their potential and I don't see any detailed specs on the Su-35...do you?

What does that have to do with anything? Your pilots fly your aircraft ours fly ours. The Typhoon pilots in the simulators were flying to the 70% limitation that is currently imposed on the real thing. These simulations are usually flown by the pilots of their respective nations so as to make it as fair as possible. It runs along the same lines as friendly nations inviting their allies to fly these new aircraft. I wont deny the SU-37 is a good aircraft and yes its manueverable, but the Typhoon can do everything it can do including these silly airshow tricks like tail slides cobras all without thrust vectoring. The only reason there is such a thing is to make the big heavy aircraft manueverable. The Typhoon is a light aircraft thus doesnt need it. Obviously we all hope these aircraft never come to blows in real combat but it would be nice to see some in the air mock dogfights. No nation is willing to do that with their aircraft in public as they dont want to see their pride and joy new fighters getting beaten.

[ATI_7500]

Maybe we should set up some kind of simulated world war. Then we'll see whose fighters are best.


I kinda liked the times after the german reunion, when the Luftwaffe was a mixed bag of western and eastern aircraft. But sadly, all of the MiGs, MIs and SUs are sold or scrapped by now, and considering the purchase of some newer equipment from Russia or the Ukraine wasn't an option for our MoD. I would have loved to see An-70s in the Luftwaffe, but sadly, we're now going for that stupid and expensive A-400M. All to keep up the european unity. :/

[Woodlouse2002]

I don't really understand this, the F-15's operational range, altitude, speed, armament and avionics were/are better than the Lightnings, I don't think someone would develop a brand new fighter that was worse than what was already in service.

I'm sorry. The Lightning didn't need range as it was and air defence fighter for the UK. The Lightnings altitude was better than the F15. The Lightning's top speed was somewhere in the region of Mach 2.2 and can go through mach one while climbing without afterburners. So it leaves the F15 in the dust there. Armament and Avionics were as good as was avaliable when the Lightning was first made. The Lightning could also give an F16 a run for it's money as far as manuvering went.
Basically the EE Lightning was superior to the F15.

[ramsa329]

I usually don't reply to posts like these since it's all speculation and in war there is no speculation only reality.

Everything was more or less going fine with some interesting discussion and than "boom"
Nationalism stinks it all up.

Although I am an American (whatever that means) I served in 3 wars in the Israeli army and I am now 56 yrs old. I was in the tank corps but witnessed many aerial battles.

I've seen Mig 21s shot down by Skyhawks (slow and low-no manuverability no escape).

No one can simulate combat or war and unless you've been there it is beyond what you can understand !!!!!!!!

I think the thing that bothers me the most is the flag-waving.

Russian against the US and European against Russia and the US ? What is this ?

US lies about Russia ? US Lies about everything ? Russia lies Europe lies?

I thought your generation learned something and somehow were supposed to be more understanding and tolerant

Judging by these posts you are as nationalistic and as capable of hate as every other generation.

When the hell will you grow-up. After you kill a few million more.

I wish that all of you will never see a war or fight in one

Michael Greenblatt
Fs-Gs

[igorski]

Well said, just to add, we can all go on about the F15 being able to wipe the floor with a Mig 29, or visa versa. but when it comes down to it, a) it depends a lot on pilots not just planes, and secondly, what are the chances of these aircraft being pitted againts each other in a full scale war anyway, ie when are the US next planning to attack Russia, or the other way around? hopefully not likely. I quite like the Lightnings combat record: No shots fired in anger.

[ATI_7500]

I've seen Mig 21s shot down by Skyhawks (slow and low-no manuverability no escape).

I disagree on that one. The Skyhawk is the by far most manoeuverable Sub-Sonic aircraft I've ever seen (the Harrier left out of consideration). And since the "E" was avaiable, it also had better chances of defending itself (Sidewinders).
And the Navy wasn't using it in the Fighter Weapons School for nothing.

And you're right - nationalism is an evil thing.

[ramsa329]

Amplifier,

I'm afraid you misunderstood me.

The Skyhawk is indeed extremely manuverable at low altitudes and sub-sonic speeds the Migs were not.

But the important point was this was no simulation it was  the real death of both Russian, Iraqi, Syrian, and Iranian pilots -No escape and on fire.

No turning off crash detection!!!!!!!

[ATI_7500]

Oh, yeah, I misunderstood what you said.

When I'm flying in Sims, I'm only flying with the highest realism level possible, so I somehow know the way an A-4 polit feels during a dogfight with MiGs.

[igorski]

I think flying FS and flying the real aircraft, with a real MiG trying to shoot you down is a little different  ;)  know what your saying though  :D I used to fly CFS with the A4 agenst all kinds of other jets, quite interesting, though I prefered the F14 in sim  8)

[Craig.]

Ramsa, i am not saying i want to see these aircraft up against each other in real warfare. Every few years as you may or may not be aware the various nations get together with their best aircraft and send them up in the air for mock combat. Everything from long range targeting to close in dogfights. This is what i want to see from the new aircraft, barring any accidents no-one gets hurt and the general public like us get to find out the aircrafts ability against each other.
As for countries lying? No, however they will never give away key secrets about their own aircraft and will always fight over who has the best.
And as for nationalistic pride. Damn right, i am proud that the UK has produced something to be proud of with the help of its European partners. It makes a change for once. However i have also given credit to both the US and Russia for their products, as all of them are of high quality and ability.

[Ivan]

Yes, iraqui pilots in iraqui (say export) versions of MiGs. If those were russian aircraft with russian pilots, the cards would have to be mixed again.

Post 1991 export fulcrums that were less equiped than the OLDER east german ones

Only Air-to-Air kill in Iraq was an unlucky hornet that got jumped by a Foxbat that was busy running away

The MiG that was downed by the dutch F-16 was a BVR kill, with enough aircraft in the air that he never knew where the shot came from

About the aircraft list that was posted
Su-47? - Navy wants them, but they sold their last carrier to india...
Su-37? - Nice, but not for the home market in the current state of economics. India however gets the TVC on the Su-30 bomber version, and China will go that path too i think
Su-52? - Low budget baby flanker... how about a whole sukhoi airforce, from the basic aerobatic trainer to the long range inteceptor and anything in between
MiG-AT? - or the Yak-130, dunno which one eventually won

About cobra thing
Cobra is usefull in combat... close range combat to be precise. When you have run out of speed, you pull the handbrake so the opponent passes you, engage the helmet sight and boom

And with the MiG-21... with the huge production numbers and the upgrade programs it still is something to be wary of.

[ATI_7500]

The relationship between the GDR and the USSR was of a different kind than the one between Iraq and the USSR.
So it's quite logical that NVA aircraft were equipped better than regular export versions.

Igorski, I'm talking about Strike Fighters here, a pretty realistic rendition of air to air combat in the 1960s. The flight model of the jets is nowhere near the CFS series.

[igorski]

Fair enough, never flown that one.