F-16 Down over Iraq!

[dcunning30]

[quote][quote]How insanely counter-productive is that!

[dcunning30]

In Iraq, there are several players that comprise what we call the "insurgency"  There's the ex-Ba'thists, aligned with foreigners loyal to Al Qaeda on one side.  These are pretty much the Sunnis.  Then there's the Iranian backed Shi'ites on the other side.  They are both fighting the Coalition forces, and fighting each other.  Al Qaeda and Iran both benefit from instability in Iraq.  So each are doing their level best to see to it that's what occurs in Iraq.  It is misleading to suggest that "secret-service" types are running the show.  They may be involved, but they are merely players in the bloodletting.

[dcunning30]

Speaking of foreigners, I just finished a book on the battle of Fallujah.  The Marines encountered evdicence of foreign fighters from 19 different countries as well as numerous torture rooms.

[Ivan]

[quote]In Iraq, there are several players that comprise what we call the "insurgency"

[Woodlouse2002]

Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.

It's all very well if the Terrorists are a six man cause all barricaded into the same building. However, when the terrorists have the support of a nation, or a religion, then to stamp them out would mean you'd have to be far more ruthless than just carving the occasional prisoners head off. On a small scale not negotiating with terrorists works. On a large scale you have to be prepared to negotiate or watch the deaths of millions in wars that cannot be won.

[Chris_F]

In the current situation the whole prisoner treatment thing isnt working anymore... in their thoughts, surrendering equals getting tainted... which leads to getting killed by their own guys because they departed their faith (or being forced to see them kill your family first and then you afterwards).

Agreed.  Certainly that's nothing new.  The Russians used to shoot their own troops who surrendered during the Battle of Stalingrad.  The Japanese executed their own troops who showed signs of weakness during WWII.  In fact, the Japanese mentality towards surrender is almost exactly the same as that being expressed above.  Surrender shamed you AND your family and was not allowed.  This extended to their attitudes towards their POWs (US forces and those they faced in Korea, Indo-china, etc).  Beheading their POWs was thought to be an act of kindness (better than being forced to return to their families in shame) and far more often their POWs were tortured to death.  Sounds familiar...

[Woodlouse2002]

I don't think the Japanise beheaded many allied POWs. They didn't think twice about working, or beating them to death though.

[Chris_F]

I don't think the Japanise beheaded many allied POWs. They didn't think twice about working, or beating them to death though.

You're right, there weren't many beheadings.  I think they viewed it as too much of an honor to bestow on their POWs.  Yeah, the more common fate was to be worked or beaten to death.  Since we're in to gruesome stuff here (and to illustrate the horrors of war) in Indonesia the Japanese troops were left to starve when their home country decided conquoring Indonesia wasn't worth the effort.  The stranded Japanese troops turned canibal.  Unfortunately meat on dead animals rotted quickly in the jungle, and there weren't many animals around.  So POWs were kept alive as long as possible, sometimes weeks.  That's all I'll say...

[Ivan]

Now we arrived at ww2 Japan... What they did in China (which is usually ignored) still has a majopr influence on regional relations... They did bioweapon experiments on POW camps...

[dcunning30]

Ivan,  I'm aware of those factions.  However, that does not speak to the difference of our opinions.  Agreed the Ba'thists have the orgizational skills and the financing.  However, their involvement in the violence has waned in comparison to Al Qaeda and alligned foreign fighters.  After it has become fairly clear Saddam wasn't coming back, the Ba'athists began to come to the recognition that they were Iraqis killing their own countrymen.  The motivationt that Saddam provided them to kill their countrymen no longer exists.  If you're of the opinion that the main Sunni violence comes from the Ba'thists, then what is their motivation.  Ba'thists are a political party, there's no religious motivation behind that.  The main Sunni organized campaign of violence can be attributed to Al Qaeda.  During the battle of Fallujah, the fighters that were encountered came fom 19 different countries.  Surely, they weren't 19 different branches of the Ba'thists movement.  They were all motivated by jihad.

[C]

Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.

Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...

[dcunning30]

Beheadings by the Japanese were more numerous that what is being suggested here.  The militerists in Japan saw themselves as the militerist and spiritual descendants of the samurai, of which the sword was an intergral weapon.  In fact, the sword defined the samurai, it took on a somewhat spiritual meaning to the warrior.  That is why all Japanese officers carries swords, and even fighter pilots sometimes carried the sword in the cockpit with him, not as a weapon if he should get shot down, but it was a symbol of the samurai spirit.

Now, it was a matter of honor and was quite natural for a Japanese officer to behead an enemy.  In fact, during the Rape of Nanking, Japanese soldiers had killing contests: who could behead the most Chinese prisoners in a given amount of time.  I've read personal accounts of Japanese officers becoming addicted to beheading captives.  One officer confessed it got so bad for him that he would secretly size-up the necks of people he encountered.

[dcunning30]

Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.

Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...

Isn't it solved?

[C]

Isn't it solved?

It can never be "solved"...

[Woodlouse2002]

Terrorism only works when societies lack sufficient balls to make the decision to do whatever it takes to stamp it out.

Really? Maybe you could have been of use to tell the world how to solved the problem of the Northern Ireland problem...

Isn't it solved?

To a certain extent. No ones killing eachother any more. We didn't get to this stage though by "stamping it out".