Really, an amazing website...

[myshelf]

Oh, and thanks for making what was a thread showing a very good new website political. This chaps put in a lot of hard work to collate the data of the force whose losses were second only to the submariners, and who received no recognition from their own government after the war. Thanks a lot.

maybe that part should be split out into it's own thread?

[C]

maybe that part should be split out into it's own thread?

No thanks. People have tried to escalate such a discussion before...

[Scorpiоn]

i wonder what history books would say about stalin if wouldn't have been forced to fight against germany?

I still say he was worse than Hitler.

[C]

I still say he was worse than Hitler.

Well, he was almost certainly responsible for more deaths.

[Smoke2much]

Is there also an entry how many german civilians each of those bombers killed?

There is no need for this information.  It is enough to know that sufficient were killed to end the war.

[myshelf]

[quote]

There is no need for this information.

[Smoke2much]

"Sufficient were killed" covers the whole scope of the war army, airforce, naval and civillian.  For 6 years the British national effort was aimed at bringing down the might of the 3rd Reich.  Churchill made it quite clear where we would fight (on the beaches etc.) and for fight read kill.  War is about killing, it is not pretty, not nice and not fun.  

I do not feel that the british public need make any apology for the losses sustained by the civillians in Germany because they voted for Hitler, they supported him and they paid the ultimate price.  6 members of my family also paid that price, three in the armed forces and three civillians.  So our retribution was fierce and many died, so what.  No one asked my fathers eight year old cousin (Gladys) how she felt when the bombs came down and brutally ended her short life.

I lose not one second of sleep over the German citizens killed by Hitlers actions during WW2, but every year on the 11th of November I think of Gladys's father (Bill) who died in the Tail Turret of a Wellington bomber.  George who died in a Corvette in the North Atlantic and Colin who was a stoker in a Submarine that vanished in the Med.

[C]

[quote]
I do not feel that the british public need make any apology for the losses sustained by the civillians in Germany because they voted for Hitler, they supported him and they paid the ultimate price.

[Smoke2much]

That's fascinating Charlie.  I go past Swanscombe everyday on my way to work and we do our shopping in Gravesend.

My family are from this area, the Cousin I mention lived in Bexley.  My father lived in Sittingbourne and my Mother in Faversham.  My wifes family is from Hellfire corner and actually lost one member to German Shelling.

Small world!

[C]

[quote]That's fascinating Charlie.

[Ijineda]

Actually I decided to stay out of this, but those comments are really sick.

It is enough to know that sufficient were killed to end the war.

No. The systematical destruction of cities and therefore civilian life didnt shorten the war at all. In fact, Harris strategy was a big failure. The war only ended when (nearly) all of germany was occupied.

I lose not one second of sleep over the German citizens killed by Hitlers actions during WW2

Then you should get your head out of your british sand and confrontate yourself with the war crimes your contry has comitted in WW2.

So our retribution was fierce and many died, so what

I have rarely read such an barbarous and inhumane statement. They were just germans, right? In this case, you seem to think just like the nazis did.

War is about kiling, but not about killing civilians deliberately.
And stop whining about those "terrible" V1 and V2s, they were just like pinbricks compared to the mass destruction of british and american bombers.

I do not feel that the british public need make any apology for the losses sustained by the civillians in Germany

Alright, thats so stereotype. you still dont realize that your country committed big war crimes, killed millions of innocent people? Sure, germany should apologize everywhere, at any occasion, but the proud british didnt make any mistakes? they are not to blame? cmon, thats really black and white thinking.

Anyway, if germans died, it was their fault, they voted for hitler. Thinking that is 1. stupid and 2. shows a big lack of historical understanding.

[Papa9571]

So I take it that Hitler's invasion of Poland in 1939 and his targeting of cities and civilians during that campaign doesn't count?

Or his invasion of Russia and almost total destruction of Staligrad, again targeting civilians?

Or his population purges?

If you want to talk history and historical facts then do so  without a predijuced slant. Stalin probably was as bad as Hitler but Stalin didn't start WW2.


Keep arguing the way you are and this thread will get locked.

[C]

Keep arguing the way you are and this thread will get locked.

Indeed. This thread was to highlight a site which is memorial to the 50,000 or so personnel of RAF's Bomber Command who gave their lives in the process of removing the Nazi regime from the face of Europe. Their loss rate was second only in the military to the crews of German U-Boats.

Ijineda, admittedly lots of Germans and other nationals were killed, but as has been pointed out, we didn't really want a war in the first place, and in balance both sides were probably as bad as each other. It was this Hitler chappie who had dreams of world domination...

Any mod, feel free to lock this thread...

[Papa9571]

There were heros on all sides of that conflict. Each country has chosen to remember them in their own way, from the Arizona memorial, the tank crosses outside Stalingrad,  to the many museuems that are dedicated to remembering WW2.

It is not our place to debate right or wrong as we can not apply todays standards to a conflict that happened over 60 years ago. Attitudes and technologies were different then and we must remember that when we delve into history.

That said I must, again, thank all allied veterans that fought in WW2. I thank them for the freedoms I enjoy today and honor their sacrifces made to keep those freedoms alive.

And that is what started this thread, honoring Bomber command pilots that never made it home. To them and their families we owe a debt of gratitude we can never repay.

[Scorpiоn]

There were heros on all sides of that conflict. Each country has chosen to remember them in their own way, from the Arizona memorial, the tank crosses outside Stalingrad,  to the many museuems that are dedicated to remembering WW2.

It is not our place to debate right or wrong as we can not apply todays standards to a conflict that happened over 60 years ago. Attitudes and technologies were different then and we must remember that when we delve into history.

That said I must, again, thank all allied veterans that fought in WW2. I thank them for the freedoms I enjoy today and honor their sacrifces made to keep those freedoms alive.

And that is what started this thread, honoring Bomber command pilots that never made it home. To them and their families we owe a debt of gratitude we can never repay.

Germany gets lambasted for even considering mentioning something good about World War II.  Much less honouring a hero.  It is true Britain's (and America's even more) actions are equal to and surpass the brutality of German bombing, but one must remember these horrendous events were triggered by none other than the Luftwaffe's strategy reversal from military to civilian targets.  The Luftwaffe got beat at what it started.  Although I can hardly say it was all justified.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

If anything, we (America) is most guilty of all.  Japan never bombed America near anything warranting the hell unleashed from the B-29s.  Granted, I doubt Japan would have hesitated if they had had the chance, given their track record in China.

PS: I cannot help but to lament the lack of any emotinal restraint in this thread.
PPS: I find no larger irony that all the bombing campaigns always cited to crush the enemy's will, when they usually had the exact opposite effect.