June 22, 1941 - Operation Barbarossa begins

[Felix/FFDS]

Operation Barbarossa begins

Just saying -

[WebbPA]

The Beginning of the End for the Reich.

[ATI_7500]

Necessary. If Hitler hadn't attacked, Stalin would have had, which would have meant a total collapse of the Reich way earlier.
Plus, the russian army was weak and unprepared in 1941.

[Felix/FFDS]

Necessary. If Hitler hadn't attacked, Stalin would have had, which would have meant a total collapse of the Reich way earlier.
Plus, the russian army was weak and unprepared in 1941.

Eventually, maybe, but remember, Hitler's attack took Stalin completely by surprise.  It took him some time to actually believe the reports of the attacks.  remember that Hitler was not the only party to invade Poland.

[ATI_7500]

Sure. The Reich and the SU were the "best friends" from '39 till '41.

[4_Series_Scania]

Pearl Harbour was the real beginning of the end for the Reich, had the Japs not awakened the "sleeping giant" I think I could easily have been born into an entirely different europe, a German one.

Just my

[ATI_7500]

Had the dumbarse Hitler not declared war on the USA...

[Felix/FFDS]

Had the dumbarse Hitler not declared war on the USA...

Honestly, by 1941, I think it was just a matter of time.  For all practical purposes, the US and Germany were fighting in the North Atlantic.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

I don't think that one could really attribute any event as the start of der untergang, rather it was a chain reaction.

A.

[H]

There is some truth in every post. As Felix indicates, the U.S. was already greatly involved. In that respect, Britain didn't totally lose out in resources when it lost 13 of its colonies at the end of the 18th century. Over a century later, long before its own official declarations of war, the resultant country was supplying Britain with not only resources but manufactured equipment.

[Scorpiоn]

The Allies could've won without the US's direct involvement.  At least in Europe, anyway.  7.12 only sped up the process.

[Ivan]

and the coldest winter in russia in the last 100 years did help a bit too

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]Pearl Harbour was the real beginning of the end for the Reich, had the Japs not awakened the "sleeping giant" I think I could easily have been born into an entirely different europe, a German one.

Just my

[ATI_7500]

Even without Russias involvment Germany would have been defeated as I do not doubt at all that the allies would have held back the bomb for long.

WTF? If any country contributed to a big degree to the decimation to the german ground forces it was Russia.

And an invasion of Europe would have become nearly impossible.

[RichieB16]

And an invasion of Europe would have become nearly impossible.

It deffinately would have made the war much more difficult, but I think the allies would have prevailed in the end.  Bare in mind, the atomic bomb was orginally intended for Europe-not the Pacific and if needed it would have more than likely been used there.  

The Russian's played a huge part in the war but Germany simply didn't have the numbers to defeat the allies.  Had Russia not been invaded and thus joined the war it may have taken a lot longer but in the end the allies would have won.