The Cold War

[Hyperion2]

I don't check the history boards as often as I'd like...I do love me the history.  lol

I was also going to stay out of this one, but I can not.

There are several misrepresentations in this thread regarding the current conflicts with terrorist organizations.

1.  They have no aim.  They do in fact have a goal.  It's to destroy all that they despise.  What is it they dislike?  Anything even remotely western in nature.  Capitalism, freedom, equality and the like.

2.  Negotiate with them.  You don't negotiate with terrorists.  Doing so accomplishes nothing.  The most you can do is talk them out of releasing hostages, say in a hijacking situation.  When you're dealing with people who will strap bombs to their children for cash, there isn't much you can do in the way of discussion.  Second, as was mentioned, there is no official representative.  al qaeda is NOT an officially sanctioned organization.  There's no one that can be contacted.  (Not that it really matters, they wouldn't be interested in negotiating even if it were a productive means of resolution.)  Also of importance is a reminder that since al qaeda isn't a governmental body, they are considered to be illegal enemy combatants under the Geneva Convention.  As such, the GC does NOT apply to them.

3.  The media wants you to believe that terrorists are only trying to destroy western culture.  No, the media wants us to believe that they are a legitimate military force protected by the Geneva Convention, and are simply trying to defend themselves.  There were 19 men aboard four airliners that weren't defending anything.  They were on an offensive mission.  They put us in defense mode.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]
2.

[Hyperion2]

I present you with my typical response to "negotiation doesn't work".

I'm going to virtually hit you over the head with a baseball bat.  I'm going to continue hitting you, beating you essentially into a pulp.

While I do this, I'm going to ask you to have a few of your friends standing beside us, politely asking me to stop.

In the mean time, I'm still beating you silly, and they're still asking.

Eventually, a bigger, stronger guy comes along and yanks me off of you, throwing me to the ground, where I break my leg.

Now I ask you.  Which worked better?  Negotiation or a strong arm?

[Woodlouse2002]

The problem with that analogy is that the bigger, stronger guy doesn't exist.

[Hyperion2]

I think it's safe to say that the United States is bigger and stronger than a renegade terrorist force in the middle of the desert.  Turn off the network news and you'll have all the evidence you need to support that.

[Hagar]

This should explain their aims. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

You don't negotiate with terrorists. Doing so accomplishes nothing.

Difficult to see how negotiation is possible in this case but to permanently solve any genuine grievance you have to talk in the end.

[Woodlouse2002]

It may be bigger and stronger but it's fighting a force it cannot see. Sure you've invaded Afganistan and Iraq all in the name of defeating terrorism but Ql Quaeda is still out there and so is Bin Laden. There is still conflict between the Isrealis and the Palistinians and I don't see much change in the state of world terrorism post 9/11 as it was before.

[Hyperion2]

Talk to someone who has been there and done the job.  They'll be able to show you that the outlook over there isn't nearly as bleak as some would have you believe.

[Woodlouse2002]

I would advise you to follow that link Hagar supplied and read all of it. Then reconsider how bleak it looks.

Don't think that just because there have been few attacks since 9/11 that you are beating them. Remember that there were extremely few attacks before and that Bin Laden attacked the twin towers in 1993. And how many attacks came after that before 9/11. As I said, inaction does not mean they are beaten. Not by a long way.

[Hagar]

I assume you're talkiing about Iraq which is a separate issue. As I understand it the occupying forces are faced with many problems which could take years, even decades to resolve. It's impossible to discuss this properly without bringing politics & religion into it. This thread seems to have strayed way off-topic anyway.

[Hyperion2]

It's impossible to discuss this properly without bringing politics & religion into it. This thread seems to have strayed way off-topic anyway.

Agreed...so I'm going to leave it alone with this.  
 
As for facing problems that could take a while to fix, you're completely right.  We knew that from the beginning it wasn't going to be an easy battle.  

Need I remind anyone how long the American Revolution was fought?  How about the Civil War?  World War I?  How about World War 2, Korea or Vietnam?  Then lets compare the raw casualty data for all of those conflicts in contrast to this one.

In the age of instant gratification, it's easy to call something a failure when it doesn't happen in a month, or even a year.  

Nothing worth having comes easily.  If it did, it wouldn't be nearly as desirable.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]




In the age of instant gratification, it's easy to call something a failure when it doesn't happen in a month, or even a year.

[Hyperion2]

It's a work in progress, but things ARE moving forward as evidenced by the long lines at the recent elections, the successful election of leadership and the formation and training of a (less corrupt) military and police force.   Factor in the expulsion of a corrupt, genocidal dictator and you've had yourself a good couple of years.

There are some people who think that it's either a failure or a success, there is no "right direction" for it to be going.  This isn't true.  Until it's done, it can't be deemed complete.  Until it's complete, you can't call it a collective failure or success.

But pound for pound, day by day, we've had considerable success.  That to me makes it all worthwhile.

[ATI_7500]

I think it's safe to say that the United States is bigger and stronger than a renegade terrorist force in the middle of the desert.  

David vs Goliath. And we all know how this story turned out in the end.

[Hagar]

You're still talking about Iraq. Al Qaeda is a global organisation with cells in many different countries. As Woody points out, it's very difficult to fight a war when you don't know who or where the enemy are or where they will strike next.