Nazi sentences at Nuremburg

[StrutterGunner]

Im gonna have to word this one carefully.... What are everyones opinions on the fairness of the sentences given the the head Nazis in Nuremburg after the end of the war? (Please, let this be a civilized discussion) Personally, I believe that the man who was shafted the most was Karl Doenitz (who really, did the exact same thing as every other allied naval commander in the war).  Rudolf Hess as well, he even left Germany before the attrocities that followed, yet he still got a life sentence, only dying in Spandau prison by the later 1980s. Granted, he still had a part in the formation of the Nazi party but was in no way in volved with the final solution. Finally, Albert Speer. Im split on his sentence. He certainly deserved some sort of prison time, but what I dont know. What I would like to hear is everyones opinion on the matter (and again, please dont let this degenerate into nazilover namecalling, I'd like this to be a civilized discussion about history)

[Woodlouse2002]

It's hard to decide what to do with the purpetrators of a regime such as the Nazi party. Winston Churchill suggested after the wars end that every man above the rank of colonel should be rounded up and shot. I think what did for most of the top Nazi's was the fact that they showed no remorse. Speer was the only one to admit to doing wrong and apologised and he got off very lightly. As for Hess, well, there's a damn good chance that it wasn't Hess that served his life sentence in Spandau.

[Hagar]

I think Woody summed it up nicely. I'm not sure what good discussing it now will do. It's over & done with & quite likely some of the worst were never caught. Some could still be alive now but this becomes more unlikely with every year that passes.

There's no doubt in my mind that Hess was a committed Nazi & remained so until his death. He might not have been directly involved in the "Final Solution" but Hitler's attitude towards the Jews & other "inferior" races was apparently quite clear in Mein Kampf. (I've never read it & don't intend to.) The reasons for his (Hess) flight to Britain have never been disclosed but I'm quite sure it wasn't anything to do with remorse. After the event Hitler denied all knowledge of it but it's more than likely that he not only knew all about it but it was with his full approval.

Speer was a very complex character & the only one of the accused to express remorse & take responsibility for his actions. He was despised for this in certain quarters for the rest of his life & lost most of his friends & supporters by doing so. He fully expected to be hanged with the rest of them & would have done so had he admitted knowing about the death camps. It seems impossible to believe that he did not know.

I'm quite sure that had the positions been reversed the same would have happened to the Allied war leaders.

PS.

As for Hess, well, there's a damn good chance that it wasn't Hess that served his life sentence in Spandau.

I think that old chestnut is very unlikely. Albert Speer spent his last few years in Spandau alone with Hess & he would certainly have known if he was an imposter. According to Speer they spent a lot of time together & could be regarded as close friends. Although Speer felt a certain amount of sympathy for him he never liked the man & would have avoided him in different circumstances.

[WebbPA]

The sentences of some of the less culpable - Doenitz, Speer, Hess - probably would have been commuted had it not been for the Soviet Union's continued insistence that every prisoner serve his full sentence.  

I read Speer's book a few years ago and as I recall he didn't even get credit for time served before conviction.

[Hagar]

If you're interested in further reading this comes highly recommended. [url=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679768122/002-1669478-9657606]Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth
[/url]
It gives an insight into the whole subject although even over several years of close cooperation the author never got through to Albert Speer the man. She came to the conclusion that there were some things he couldn't admit or explain, even to himself. It's quite a tome & not an easy read. It took me a while to get through but I feel it was well worth the effort.

[Woodlouse2002]

For the Hess not being Hess thing, it is difficult to believe. He stood trial along side all the other Nazi's and none of them noticed. However Hess recieved some rather shocking wounds in the first world war. Yet when he was examined in Spandau there was no sign of either the scarring left or the shrapnel inside him. So no one really knows.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

I think there are some that definetly got what they deserved, but there are some who shouldnt have got it and some who should have got it but didnt.
I don't think Hess should have been jailed, as he didnt play a big enough role in the execution of the Nazi plans.
Yes, Hess had his views but isnt that a democratic right?
I was angry to dicover that Goering cheated the hangmans noose...
Doenitz didnt deserve it...
their finanical officers should have been dealt with more lightly...
Although there was some "justice" meted out at Nuremburg, I can hardly call the trials "unbiased"or "fair."
Its a messy issue and I think that many people had clouded judgements.

A.

[WebbPA]

As Woody suggested, "Winston Churchill suggested after the wars end that every man above the rank of colonel should be rounded up and shot."  The soviet sentiments were probably more along the lines of shooting every NCO and above and most of the enlisted men.

"Unbiased", "fair" and "justice" were not overriding concepts at Nuremberg (IMHO).  The "laws" which were being enforced were made up after the fact to justify prosecution.  We know what you did and we are going to convict you of a crime.

Most of the death penalty defendants got better than they deserved and should have been shot at summary court martial.  It is an unfortunate footnote in history that the Japanese and Nazi regimes were the last to spare the victors (for the most part) the trouble of war crimes tribunals, modern dictators being content to take their chances in court.

As time passed, however, (as in the case of William Calley, sentenced to life imprisonment for Vietnam war crimes, served 3 years) public sentiment shifted towards a commutation of sentences.

[StrutterGunner]

Just a footnote, Albert Speer wrote an extremely interesting book after Inside the third Riech called Spandau: the Secret diaries. It is comprised of thousands of smuggled out journal entries he made during his imprisonment. It really is a fascinating look at how Speer and his fellow prisoners coped with the difficulties of beng imprisoned, once I started reading it, I just couldnt put it down.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Webb, I don't think it is fair to shoot someone at summary court martial.
How can it be said that they got "better than they deserved"...if what they "deserved"was not a solid concept?
In that war, the "bringers of democracy" were the allies, wouldnt it be hypocritical to deny them a fair trial...a fair trial is a democratic right, therefore by the democratists being victors over the facists it would be facist for the democratists to practice summary execution.
Lets not forget that these 'monsters'are people too.

A.

[Hagar]

Just a footnote, Albert Speer wrote an extremely interesting book after Inside the third Riech called Spandau: the Secret diaries. It is comprised of thousands of smuggled out journal entries he made during his imprisonment. It really is a fascinating look at how Speer and his fellow prisoners coped with the difficulties of beng imprisoned, once I started reading it, I just couldnt put it down.

All this is covered in the book I mentioned. The author was given access to the original work & not the edited versions that were later published under Speer's name. (Some things were left out on the publisher's advice & other changes were made by Speer himself.) These include copies of a remarkable 1,200 page draft (the author's words) that Speer wrote in Spandau between Jan 1953 & Jan 1954. I think it's probably the nearest to the truth that anyone will ever get. Apparently Speer wrote those diaries in weekly installments (there are 400 of them) to his daughter Hilde who Gitta Sereny says is the most moral person she ever met. All this was written on scraps of paper & smuggled out of Spandau over many years. This was then compiled into some sort of sense by his loyal friend Rudolf Wolters. Speer's "black" archive, his own private archive of secret correspondence with his family alone consists of "Thousands of pages of transcripts typed from tens of thousands of flimsy pages & hundreds of thousands if not millions of words in close, hard to decipher writing." Although he often referred to his secret archive during meetings with the author, nobody but Speer was allowed access to it. It has been decided by the family that this archive will remain closed until the third generation of Speer children are grown.

I think the Nuremberg trial was as fair as it could be. Many people, including Winston Churchill, would have preferred them not to have taken place at all. As for leniency, that's all very well if the accused show some remorse for their actions. Albert Speer was the only one of the Nazi hierarchy to not only show remorse but also offer to take full responsibilty for it on behalf of the German nation. Whatever else you might think of him I believe this took great courage & was a very honourable thing to do.

[Woodlouse2002]

You also have to remember that the other point of the Nuremburg trials was to make sure that the Nazi regime could not be resurrected. This is why Hess had to be locked up. He was one of the founding members of the Nazi party and had he been released then all those hard core nazi's left after the war would have flocked to him. The same goes for Speer. To put it simply, no one involved with the higher workings of the Nazi party could be left to go unpunished no matter how much or how little they did.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

You make a true point there Woody.

A.

[Vic]

Does anyone have any more information on Hess? On Channel One the documentery program "Secrets of the Century" had an episode about him.
Apparently, he hijacked a Luftwaffe bomber and headed to England to discuss a peace treaty in the name of Chancellor Hitler. I forget the name of the man e wanted to meet, but he was a Brittish parlementary or a member of the royal family. He was captured and when Hitler recieved word of his little escape, he did not seem at all suprised, later, when Hitler officially revealed this to the military cheifs, they said that it looked much like an act. (Where he was saying that Hess is a traitor and a madman) The Nazis also tried to assasinate Hess while he was in prison, the attempt failed and Hess never learned about it. I remember them saying that he tried to say something about "Brittish involvement" during the Nuremburg trials, but was silenced by the Brittish. There was also something fishy about his death. It seemed to some that he was strangled, and then instead of having a doctor trying to resusitate him (they did not let a doctor get close to him) the person that was performing CPR on him ended up crushing his rib cage and puncturing vital organs.
Does anyone have any more info on this?
Vic

[Hagar]

I read all I could find about Rudolf Hess some years ago as I discovered he was held for some time at Wiston House, a country mansion not far from where I went to school. There were several references to him in a detailed biography of Albert Speer I've just finished reading. Speer spent 20 years in Spandau with Hess & although he never liked him was apparently one of the few who showed any friendship towards him. Hess remained a committed Nazi until his death which was after Speer had been released. There have been rumours that he was murdered but this is often the case when someone commits suicide in prison. The same has recently been claimed for mass-murderer Dr Harold Shipman but I don't know if there's any truth in it.

From what I can make out, Hess decided to fly to Scotland to meet an important person (some say the Duke of Hamilton) that he believed was sympathetic to the Nazi cause. He apparently hoped to be put in touch with others who thought the same way with the idea of some sort of truce which would allow an attack on Soviet Russia without interference from Britain or the US. It's been said that he discussed this with Hitler & that he knew all about it although he might have tried to dissuade him. It's almost impossible to believe he didn't know. Quite naturally he denied this when it all went wrong & even denounced his former loyal friend & deputy. (You only have to read any spy novel to know that this is not ususual with any undercover operation. "If you're caught, you're on your own.") Winston Churchill saw his being in Britain as an embarrassment & didn't know what to do with him. Instead of publicising it as you might expect, the fact that he'd been captured at all was not generally known. It's possible there was an assassination attempt but I've not heard anything about it. After being captured Hess never divulged his intentions to anyone, even his closest friends & family, so the real truth will never be known.

There's plenty of articles on this subject all over the Web. You have to read a selection & make up your own mind as many are biased one way or the other & there's the usual conspiracy theories.

PS.

According to William L. Shirer, author of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Hess might have flown to Britain in the hope that he could score a stunning diplomatic victory by sealing a peace between the Reich and Britain. He flew to Britain in May 1941 to meet the Duke of Hamilton and Brandon, parachuting from his Messerschmitt Bf 110 over Renfrewshire on May 10, and landing (breaking his ankle) at Floors Farm near Eaglesham, just south of Glasgow.

Hess believed Hamilton to be an opponent of Winston Churchill and came to see him because he did not want to negotiate directly with Churchill or his cabinet as he held them responsible for the outbreak of the war. As such, he did not consider that Germany could negotiate a peace with them. His proposal for peace was identical to the bargain Hitler tried to make with Neville Chamberlain prior to the invasion of Poland: Germany would help protect the British Empire as long as Britain did not oppose Germany in Europe.

Hess' strange behavior and unreasonable proposals totally discredited him as a serious negotiator, especially since it quickly became obvious that he did not officially represent the German government. He was imprisoned by the British in the Tower of London. (Hess holds the distinction of being the last person imprisoned there to date.) Hitler spread the word throughout Germany that Hess had become insane and acted of his own accord. Martin Bormann succeeded him as deputy.

http://www.answers.com/topic/rudolf-hess