Organisations...War Crimes type....

[Woodlouse2002]

And V-2's were more accurate?

If Germany had the resources to built V2's at the rate they wanted they could have had one falling on London every few minutes. It doesn't matter how accurate they are, London is a city big enough for a V2 to hit. If I remember correctly the V2's actually were generally accurate to one or two miles. Which is better than your average British bomber could do in the dark in 1943.

[Professor Brensec]

Regardless of accuracy or whether the raids were 'military' targetted raids gone awry. It doesn't matter. One or two bad decisions, whether intentional or not cannot be compared to planned 'systematic' murder, terror and destruction of an entire continent for 5 years!

Andrew, as for the distinction between Nazis and Germans. I made the destinction in a codicil to my post (only because I do believe there were at least some people who did not know of the atrocities and who did not actively take part in the usual Nazi type activities).

But take a look at the percentages of vote that the Nazi Party received from the German people in the Thirties! Such high percentages of a vote are pure 'fantasy' to a politician these days (when less than 50% is usually the winners share).

Also, lingering in the same area for a second, I cannot believe that a concentration camp can exist for 3 years, less than two miles from a town of 5000 people, without ANYONE knowing. Especially when the chimneys can be seen from the town, when the trains always seem to go in full but only ever come out empty. Where the stench was horrific for miles before the Allies arrived (but they didn't initially know what it was) and when the guards who work there go home to their families in the town each night!!

I'm sorry. It's impossible! But still, I give the German people as a whole, the benefit of the doubt and understand that 'fear' after they may have realised what had been happening would have been terrible. But, I'm sorry, I don't think , in all fairness, the people of the day (as opposed to todays Germans) can really pretend to be uptight about a couple of air-raids. Nor can the Japanese.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Look, there was one family who went to see the concentration camps after the war finished.
They didnt know.
They went home and hung themselves in shame. now, they voted for Hitler in 1933...but I dont think they voted to exterminate the Jews.

A.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Look, there was one family who went to see the concentration camps after the war finished.
They didnt know.
They went home and hung themselves in shame. now, they voted for Hitler in 1933...but I dont think they voted to exterminate the Jews.

A.

[ATI_7500]

They went home and hung themselves in shame. now, they voted for Hitler in 1933...but I dont think they voted to exterminate the Jews.

They probably voted for Hitler,because:

- he had simple solutions for complex problems.
- he promised to lead Germany back to strength.
- he wanted revenge for the treaty of Versailles.
- National Socialism itself was something that sucked them in and fascinated them.
- democracy in Germany was nothing more than a big mess during those times.
- they didn't know about his real plans (how many people had actually read "Mein Kampf"? An unimportantly small number. And seventy percent of its readers thought about it as complete nonsense.)

If I was there, I probably wouldn't have voted differently.

[Professor Brensec]

I understand why people would have voted for the Nazis in '33. There really wasn't a viable alternative anyway. (Have a read of "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" if you're up to it. A lot of politcal 'lead-up' info - but it is a daunting read).

There is certainly no doubt that Hitler and his government put Germany back on it's feet and made it a far better place to live in and gave her people 'dignity' and purpose again. If only he had just left it at that, he would still be a hero in the eyes of many, including other nations (even though much of what he achieved was due to totally ignoring the Treaty of Verseilles, but that was, IMO a big mistake anyway).

These things had to be stopped and they had to be stopped as soon as possible. And they were. I don't think the methods used to try and stop such horrors as early as possible can be criticised, especially by the Nation who was (be it knowingly or not) responsible for commiting them.  ;D

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

I have a feeling that many people felt they were betrayed by Hitler, and found that National Socialism wasn't as good as it was made out to be.

A.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Mahatma Ghandi and Winston Churchill gave praise to him, but I think his later deeds carried GroB Deutschland idea a lil bit too far...

A.

[ATI_7500]

I have a feeling that many people felt they were betrayed by Hitler, and found that National Socialism wasn't as good as it was made out to be.

They first realized that NS wasn't that good for them when the bombing raids were destroying most of the german cities.
And most of the Germans didn't feel betrayed by Hitler. In fact,in the last few days of the war,there were tens of thousands of suicides.
And why? Because Hitler perfectly understood how to manipulate people (he had a stunning knowledge about human psychology!). Most of them were on his side,more or less, just until the end.

[Hagar]

There is certainly no doubt that Hitler and his government put Germany back on it's feet and made it a far better place to live in and gave her people 'dignity' and purpose again.

This is the whole point. I don't think that anyone who wasn't there could possibly understand what restoring national pride meant to the average German. The hated Treaty of Versailles was a compromise that was possibly the major cause of WWII. It was more an act of revenge & punishment than a peace settlement & Germany was given no choice. Sign the treaty or be invaded by the Allies. The effect on the economy was so devastating it led to the rise of National Socialism. If it hadn't been Hitler & the Nazis it would have been someone else.

Many people in Europe including important politicians admired Hitler & what he was doing for his country. They might not have known about the terrible things going on but even if they did it might not have made any difference. WWII was not fought to save the Jewish people or anyone else suffering under the Nazi regime. It was declared as a result of Germany invading Poland after all negotiations & diplomacy had failed.

It's very easy to moralise after the event. Many terrible things have been done by my own country which I'm not proud of. One small example: Britain invented the "concentration camp" during the Boer War & many thousands died in them, including women & children. I'm ashamed to admit it & deeply regret it happened but I can't be held responsible for anything done by my ancestors & refuse to apologise for it. By accepting the awful truth I would hope to prevent anything like it happening again. This is by no means certain as the ordinary citizen has very little power to change anything, especially in wartime.

Meanwhile, dictators in many parts of the world treat their own people in a similar, if not worse, manner. The world sits back, wrings its hands & does nothing.

[ATI_7500]

Very good point there, Doug!

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

very true, though I'm pleased to say my colony hasnt done anything on the scale of Europe....

A.

[Hagar]

Fortunately not but I seem to remember reading about the indigenous inhabitants of Australia being almost wiped out many years ago with incredible barbarity. This might have been by the European (mainly British) explorers & not the settlers themselves.

PS. This makes sobering reading. http://www.yourencyclopedia.net/Genocidal.html

Australia

Tasmania's Aboriginal population was almost entirely wiped out in the 19th century. At least some died at the hands of settlers, many died from disease inadvertently introduced by those settlers, and internal conflicts also occurred. The relative effects of those and other factors is a subject of strong historical and political debate, including whether they constituted genocide.

Some have argued that the removal of Aboriginal children from their families by the Australian government* constituted genocide.

* This was still happening as recently as 1972.

[ATI_7500]

There is no country out there that hasn't got blood on its hands - more or less.

[Professor Brensec]

very true, though I'm pleased to say my colony hasnt done anything on the scale of Europe....

A.

Andrew, I'm not sure how old you are, so you may not be aware that until the late '60's we had a disgucting legislation (and mindset) called "The White Australia Policy". It was a documented and implemented Australian philosophy designed to keep anyone who was not 'Anglo-Saxon' out (and get rid of those who were already here???).

There was also, as Hagar, points out, many rotten things done to the Aboriginal people, especially during the early years. Tasmania is a specific case in point.

I believe the last FULL-BLOODED Tasmanian Aboriginal (a woman named Truganini) died in 1876.
(A small bit on Truganini: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truganini )

Although not an entire race, the Tasmanian Aboriginals were a separate and unique people (as opposed to the mainland Aboriginal). In this context, no, we haved done anything like in Europe, at least not on that scale. But then again, at each time in other countries when genocide has been attempted, it has failed.

** Except in the case of the Tasmanian Aboriginal (and the context I mentioned). We have the distinction of being the only Nation to have succeeded in wiping out a people.