Organisations...War Crimes type....

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Its very touchy, but they really were asking for it, lets not foget the sinking of passenger liners by German U Boats in 1940...but war is war.I've seen pictures from the Hamburg firestorm and they were truly shocking, but..well....as you say, the winner is always right.

A.

[WebbPA]

[quote]The winners are always right; therefore it sounds very likely to me that organisations like SAS would have been treated like a terrorist organisation if Hitler had won the war.
But what I dont understand is (for example) that there are still numerous monuments in the UK representing Air Marshall Arthur Harris, aka as "Bomber-Harris". From 1942 on, he introduced a new strategy which consisted in destroying the citys of germany in order to demoralize the people. Those raids culminated in the destruction of Dresden in 1945. Dresden, with a population of 600,000, was the refuge for about another 600,000 people, families fleeing from the russians. Only in one night, nearly 300,000 civilians died from Harris

[Professor Brensec]

Yes, I do remeber that World At War episode- they said they (the Russians) would get rid of 5000 General Staff (OKW) - as you said, the Western Alllies were a check on the Russians...but I think more than 10 % survived Russian imprisonment, I remember hearing that they were quite decent to the Regulars who fought at Stalingrad, tried to convert them to Communism...unfortunatly those who said "nien!" were ostracised and beaten up...though on the trains back to Deutschland, there were bodes of big commie germans on the tracks...the old stonies who said no to communism killed the german oppresors...wie interessant....

A.

Sorry Andrew, but of the 200,000 to 300,000 (the figure varies) that were taken prisoner at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned (that figure never varies).

I'm led to believe that the majority died from disease and starvation, rather than from physical assault and murder (although there is a thin line).

I'm not sure of the actual figure for the ALL the Germans taken prisoner by the Russians, but I have heard and read the Stalingrad figure time and again from many sources. I'm sure the overall figure is not as bad as the Stalingrad one, in fact nowhere near it. But that particular army was very unfrotunate in that regard.  ;D

[Ijineda]

Sounds like someone has just read David Irving's  popular propaganda book, "Destruction of Dresden".

hm, unfortunately I dont know Mr Irving or his book...the destruction of cities like dresden is not propaganda, its just a fact among others!

[Professor Brensec]

I'm personally appalled by any kind of cuelty towards anyone for any reason. However, there was a war. We all know it and some of us know what that means first hand in terms of what it can do to you, as a soldier and as a human being.

As for the 'war crimes' committed by the Allies and the 'questionable' tactics, raids and pratices, I can only say this.

At the risk of sounding 'unfeeling' (which I am not - nor am I unsympathetic towards the 'innocents' in Germany).

Had Germany not started a war born simply out of revenge (for WWI and Versaielles), greed (for the land and raw materials of other nations) and arrogance (their belief in their own superiority over other races), none of these things would have occurred.

No other nation in Europe wanted war. The appeasement and grovelling that went on before they finally realised the truth is testamant to that.

And the very same goes for the Japanese.

This is, as I said, not born out of an unfeeling attitude. I hate to think of what every single person went through, regardless of what side they were on, but when you have so many millions of people fighting, at times, with the very survival of their homes and families at stake, some bad decisions are bound to be made, especially by people who have lost sons, brothers, daughters, mothers and even young children to the enemies terrors.

In light of this, the Hamburg and Dresden raids can be understood, at least partly, in the interest of simply shortening the war (whether that was the instigators reasoning doesn't matter, although I'm sure it was as far as Trumans A-Bomb decision is concerned).

The plain fact is, the concentration camps, inhuman cruelty towards POWS (by Japanese and sometimes German), medical experiments (by both German and Japanese) and the terrorising of civilian populations (by both German and Japanese) were NOT 'bad decisions' made by individuals in haste or under duress or in any other mitigating circumstance. They were systematic, purposeful, intentional 'programs', which were ordered, documented and carried out by tens of thousands.

There are no excuses and there is nothing that the Allies did that can in any way be compared to that kind of premeditated inhumanity to man.

In the immortal words of a famous person: "They started it. We finished it!"

P.S. When I say German, I mean more specifically 'NAZI'. But I'm sorry, I have no codicil for the Japanese.

[WebbPA]

I don't know how this thread degenerated into an Allied war crimes thing but I appreciate the well reasoned responses.

It reminds me a bit of an old "Star Trek" (original series) episode where societies have been at war by computer for millions of years and casualties dutifully report to extermination stations to simulate war deaths.  Captain Kirk, in his infinite wisdom, destroys the computers and forces the warring societies to experience real war.  As the Enterprise leaves the system Kirk knows that war will soon be abolished.

[Professor Brensec]

I recall that episode, Webb. In fact, I don't have to recall too much. I saw it last week on Fox (we get heaps of ST every day - all series').

The fact that you've mentioned that the reality of how horrible war is, is naturally abhorrent to us as human beings, reinforces my main point. The one responsible for starting it, provided it's relatively clear cut who did, has to bear the responsibility for the resultant horror.

I think, anyway.............

[WebbPA]

They have sowed the wind and they shall reap the whirlwind.

[Professor Brensec]

Basically.........yes.

[Hagar]

there are still numerous monuments in the UK representing Air Marshall Arthur Harris, aka as "Bomber-Harris".

While not wishing to prolong this argument I would like to correct this statement. To the best of my knowledge there is only one monument to "Bomber" Harris in the UK. This is the controversial statue in front of St. Clement Danes (the central church of the RAF) in London. It was daubed with red paint soon after being unveiled in 1992. Feelings still run deep over the destruction of Dresden after all these years. You have to remember that this was total war & bombing towns & cities at night was the only effective way the RAF could strike at Nazi Germany for a long period of WWII. Bomber Command lost over 57,000 men while doing it. No campaign medal was ever awarded to these brave men, mainly as a direct result of the public feelings over that one raid on Dresden which I believe was carried out on Winston Churchill's orders at the request of Josef Stalin.

The arguments still go on almost 60 years later.

For a number of years, the raid on Dresden was condemned as an unnecessary act. However, a recent publication has presented arguments that Dresden was indeed a legitimate target for the Allies and that the judgment of Harris was correct. In 1992, a statue to Harris was unveiled near Trafalgar Square in London. Within 24 hours, red paint was poured over it - such was/is the controversy the beliefs of Harris caused.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/air_marshall_arthur_harris.htm

PS. The historic St Clement Danes church was itself almost totally destroyed during the London Blitz in 1941. It wasn't fully restored until 1957.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

Look, without meaning to ruin my reputation, the NAZIS asked for it.
The Germans didn't, but the NAZIS did.

A.

[eno]

The one thing that has been forgotten is that in all the bombing that was done in WW2 the accuracy was  never better than half a mile. In fact in the first years of the war  less than 10% of raids actually hit their targets.
So in order to  hit the target that you wanted, you had to blitz the whole area and use hundreds of aircraft to do it. Whilst it was considered  unacceptable to raze large areas to the ground, in the act of trying to take out military targets civilians were going to be hit and escalation would take place.

cheers
eno

[WebbPA]

And V-2's were more accurate?

[Hagar]

The natural reaction of anyone being bombed is to hit back & "give 'em some of their own medicine". I'm not convinced that the long-suffering residents of London would have had much sympathy for any German city during WWII. Of course, you have to remember that news was strictly censored throughout the war & they wouldn't have known the extent of the damage or the facts behind specific raids. Nor am I convinced that conventional bombing, however accurate, could ever have much influence on public morale or have much effect on the war itself. The frightening thought is that a single bomb could now cause more damage & loss of life than was ever experienced by London & Dresden throughout WWII.

[ATI_7500]

And V-2's were more accurate?

V-2s weren't even meant to be accurate.