Corsair VS. BF-109?

[denishc]

 When the Dread Pirate started this thread he wanted to know about "intertheater matchups...a Spitfire and a Zero".  Well, in actuality, that premise isn't as farfetched as it sounds.  While we tend to associate the Spitfire with their valiant stand over the British Isles during the Battle of Britian and epic fighter sweeps across the channel, the Spitfire saw action in almost every front of World War 2.  So combat between Spitfires and Japanese aircraft weren't very "intertheater"......

 Spitfires vs. Ki-43s and Ki-44s:  In the Far East (Burma) a "period of relative calm ended on February 6, 1944 when Japanese troops launched a major offensive in the Arakan area.  The attackers used the well-tried tactic of infiltrating forces through the jungle to get behind the Allied positions, thus severing their supply routes and forcing the Allied troops to pull back.  But this time a new counter tactic would be used."  Relying on the new Spitfire (Mk. VIIIs) to establish air superiority over the battle area, the cut off Allied troops at Sinzweya were ordered to stand firm, "they would be supplies from the air by C-47s and C-46s until they could be relieved."
 Three Spitfire VIII units, No.67, No.81 and No.152 moved to the forward airfield at Ramu, close to the Indian-Burmese border.  "The arrival of these units changed the air situation completely.  The Spitfire Mk. V had been about equal in performance to the best Japanese fighter in the theater, the Nakajima Ki-44 'Tojo'.  However, the Spitfire Mk. VIII had a speed advantage of 40 mph over the Ki-44, and 90 mph over the more numerous Nakajima Ki-43 II 'Oscar'.  The Spitfires inflicted such heavy losses on the JAAF that after a few days the latter ceased operations over the battle area, and the airlift proceeded unhindered."

[Wing Nut]

From the sublime to the ridiculous. At the Chailey air show I attended a week ago they renacted an encounter between an L-4 Grasshopper (Piper Cub) & a Fieseler Storch. The L-4 crew had spotted the Storch & decided to attack it. The pilot flew alongside it while his observer opened fire with his service pistol. The Storch was actually forced down & crash landed but I think the pilot escaped unhurt. This was the only known incidence of air-to-air combat with pistols during WWII.

PS.
http://www.historicaircraftcollection.ltd.uk/hac_storch_cub.html

Did he get credit for a kill?

[Hagar]

Did he get credit for a kill?

I have no idea. This was the first I'd heard of the incident. From what I can make out it's referred to in "The Last Battle" by Cornelius Ryan. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684803291?v=glance
There is also a limited edition print available entitled "Duel in the Sun". http://www.historicaviation.com/historicaviation/product_info.po;jsessionid=hQ09SPrhYea1IJwTK4275F_o(0CpplRPt)?ID=2883

Lt.s Francies and Martin in their L-4B Piper Cub shoot down a Fieseler Fi 156 "Storch" and record the final air-to-air shots between Americans and Germans in WWII.

Apparently they did more than force the Storch down. They landed & took the crew prisoner. There would be no room for extra passengers in the L-4 so I can only assume there were Allied forces nearby.

[Wing Nut]

I've read that book, but it's been a while.  I don't seem to remember Ryan mentioning it.  Excellent book though.  All of Ryan's books are...  ;)

[Hagar]

I've been told it's on pp.310-312 of Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle" (photo page 190). I don't have the book & haven't read it.

[jimclarke]

Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim

[Felix/FFDS]

Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim

There were pilots that flew almost every type of airplane - allied and axis - and wrote the results of their tests, but specific matchups ... ??

I guess the "best" arbiter these days of this type of discussion would be the programmed performance in the massively multiplayer online games, like Warbirds and Aces High, where the developers have programmed "realistic" performance into their models.

My take on the 109 vs Corsair would be that it would depend on the model (a late 109K would eat up an F4U-1, where an F4U-4 could overpower an Me109E).  I think it would be a relatively even match, with one type's weaknesses offset by its strengths.  Ultimately, it would depend on the pilot and the circumstances -  Catch an F4U-1D low and slow, with no E, and even a slower Ki-43 Hayausa/Oscar will plink it to death!

[Hagar]

Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim

I could be wrong but sadly I don't think there are any genuine Bf 109s of any designation flying right now. There are a few examples of the Hispano Buchon - the Spanish-built Bf 109G variant. This has a Merlin engine & might not be a fair comparison with the original. I don't know how they go on in the US but over here they would be considered too valuable to risk in a mock dogfight.

[Felix/FFDS]

If you consider that the later 109s were more or less even with the Mustangs in dogfighting capabilities, you can look to the 1968 "Soccer War" between Honduras and El Salvador for the last great air combats between the classic piston engined fighters.

[denishc]

Speaking of Corsair VS. BF-109 have any had mock dogfights in recent years at airshows etc? Are there any good websites that cover warbirds as far as pairing up planes in mock battles and listing results?

Jim

Jim and the Dread Pirate,
 I don't know of a website, but how about a book....

  "Duels in the Sky" by Captain Eric M. Brown, RN.

 The book list hypothetical combats between various aircraft used in World War 2 and what their out comes may have been.
 Check out this websit for more info and reviews:  www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0870210637/102-4319949-4752951