Warhawk VS. ME-109?

[Wing Nut]

I was having a discussion at work with a guy and the P-40 Warhawk came up.  We were wondering if a Warhawk ever went up against a 109 anywhere.  Anyone know of any dogfights?

[denishc]

 P-40s came up against Me-109s in North Africa in both British and U.S. hands, as well as in the Eastern Front flown by Russians.
 I don't know of any individual dogfights but I believe that aircraft for aircraft the P-40, while being a reliable aircraft, was over matched when it came up against the Me-109.

[ChuckMajik]

I've seen interviews of german pilots who flew in North Africa.
Where they said the P-40 could be a tricky foe due to it's better turning abilities.

[HawkerTempest5]

I believe that Hans Marcelle (sorry if that's spelt wrong) shot down something like eight P-40s in his 109 in a single engagement.

[Hagar]

Hans Joachim Marseille - "The Star of Africa".
http://www.2worldwar2.com/marseille.htm

His most "classic" combat, by some analysts, was on June 6, 1942 at noon. While in a bomber escort mission, he saw a formation of 16 P-40 Tomahawk fighter and ground attack aircraft, but initially remained with his formation, escorting the german bombers. After ten minutes, he left his formation with the escorted bombers and flew alone to attack the 16 Tomahawks, but his faithful wingman followed him. Marseille climbed above a tight formation of four, then dived at them. From a range of just 200ft he selected his first victim and turned at him. From a very short range of just 150ft he fired and shot it down. He then pulled up, turned, and dived at his 2nd victim, shooting it down from a range of 150ft. The others began to dive, but Marseille dived at them, turned at his 3rd victim and shot it down at altitude of about 3500ft (1km). He passed thru the smoke from his 3rd victim and leveled at low altitude, and then climbed again. He then dived again, at his 4th victim. He fired from just 100ft, but his guns didn't fire, so he fired his machine guns from very short range and passed thru the debris from his 4th victim. At the moment he hit his 4th victim, his 3rd victim hit the ground after falling 3500ft, approximately 15 seconds between victories, an indication of Marseille's speed. The remaining Tomahawks were now all at very low altitude. He leveled at them and quickly closed distance. He found himself beside one of the Tomahawks, he turned at him and fired, hitting his 5th victim in the engine and the cockpit. He climbed again, watched the remaining Tomahawks, selected a target, dived, levelled, and fired, and passed just above his 6th victim. He then climbed to his wingman which observed the battle from 7500ft above, and then, short of fuel and ammunition, flew back to base.

On Sept. 26, he shot down his last victims, making a total of 158 confirmed air victories. He received a new Me-109 aircraft but refused to replace his faithful aircraft. His status was such that only an order by fieldmarshal Kesselring, the supreme commander of the german forces in the southern front, convinced him three days later to use the new aircraft.

The next morning, Sept. 30, 1942, he flew his 382nd combat mission, a fighter sweep over british territory. They met no enemies, and turned back towards the german lines. Marseille then had a technical problem. His new aircraft's engine cooling system failed, the engine caught fire, and his cockpit was full of smoke. Encouraged by his fellows, Marseille flew his burning new Me-109 three more minutes until he was again over german held territory. He then turned his aircraft upside down, jettisoned the canopy, and then released himself and fell outside of the burning fighter. Bailing out is not always safe, and Marseille was hit in the chest by the rudder of his Me-109 and lost consciousness, so he did not open his parachute, and fell down to the ground and died.

Sqdn Ldr. Neville Duke (later to become Hawker Aviation's chief test pilot) was the top-scoring RAF ace in North Africa with 28 victories. Some were while flying the P-40 but I don't have the details. His first tour was with 112 Squadron flying the P-40 Kittyhawk but 2 more were on the Spitfire Mk V & Mk VIII. He was shot down twice, once by Otto Schultz, another Luftwaffe Bf 109 ace, but fortunately survived.

PS. This painting by Nicholas Trudgian commemorates the bitter air war fought over the Libyan desert. It's a limited edition entitled Desert Sharks and Eagles & signed by 2 RAF & 2 Luftwaffe aces who took part in it. Hauptmann Emil Clade, Group Captain Billy Drake, Squadron Leader Neville Duke & Oberst Eduard Neumann.

[tiger63]

I think it's kind of tragic how he flew 382 missions and then died from a malfunction in a plane he was forced to fly.

[Mr.Mugel]

Yeah, the Yellow 14, BF109 F-4/Z Trop, Hans Joachim Marseille, a really good pilot. He trained shootiung at other planes while the flights to the Battlefield, he just flew turns around his squad mates, and tried the best angles how to shoot the Enemy out of a turn. And he made it really good, he usually blasted a salve at the Enemy, ranging from The Engine till the cockpit, a very good tactic i think.

Yeah and the BF-109 faced some P-40

[ATI_7500]

Marseille was a genius,but I think that Hartmann was even better. He seemed to be one of the few pilots who could take out the IL-2 ("concrete aircraft") just with a few shots.

[Felix/FFDS]

Marseille was a genius,but I think that Hartmann was even better. He seemed to be one of the few pilots who could take out the IL-2 ("concrete aircraft") just with a few shots.

But - he had to walk (not fly) away from his first kill - an IL-2.  His main tactic of coming close and blasting the enemy plane works good, except that that IL-2 had a good rear gunner, and dished out as good as they got ...  Hartmann crash landed but returned to base.

[ATI_7500]

...later on,he changed his tactics and attacked the Sturmoviks from below with a well aimed shot in the vulnerable oil cooler.

A nice example for "learning by doing".

[Felix/FFDS]

...later on,he changed his tactics and attacked the Sturmoviks from below with a well aimed shot in the vulnerable oil cooler.

A nice example for "learning by doing".

Thank you - you just reminded me of what I'm doing wrong in "Aces High" and why IL-2s shoot me down regularly...

[ATI_7500]

Those AI gunners must be really good.
I usually tend to rush in from up above with about 700kph and blow their tails away with the 30mm cannon...not Hartmann-like,but it works...

[Felix/FFDS]

Those AI gunners must be really good.

THere are no AI gunners in Aces High - it's an online game ...

[Stormtropper]

Is it any good Felix?

Jeff

[Felix/FFDS]

Is it any good Felix?

Jeff

Since this is getting off-subject, I've PM'd you my reply.