WWI dogfights

[Professor Brensec]

You put this topic here just so I'd see it. Didn't you!!!??

HI people. Still kicking. Miss you all. Trying to get in more often but it's been real hard. Thanks for all the messages too.  ;D

I doubt that too many dogfights in WWII (let alone WWI)  took place at those altitudes, at least not too long before they ended up a hell of a lot lower. Of course, it's already been mentioned that they couldn't breathe very well anyway.

Someone mentioned the way it works in the sims (which we all know Hagar will tell me are rarely a 'real' indication of the facts! ) .
You try to get any fighter, regardless of power and agility, to do what you want it to do at 25,000 ft. They just don't handle up that high. It's hard enough to keep speed without dropping a thousand or so, and as for HITTING another fighter. I can't hit bombers at that altitude after my first pass.

(They seem to be able to hit me though!!!!!!!???????? )

[Meyekul]

I also don't think that WWI planes went anywhere near 20,000ft.. Were those planes even equiped with fuel mixture controls?  I would think the engine (or the pilot!) would die from lack of oxygen if they tried to stay that high.

Anyone interested in WWI air combat might want to check out Manfred Von Richthofen's book, Der Rote Kampfflieger, or "The Red Fighter Pilot."  In case you don't know the name Richthofen, he is better known as "The Red Baron."  Its a great book, but a bit difficult to read since it was originally written in german.

The text is available for free online:
http://www.richthofen.com/

[Hagar]

Hi Meyekul & welcome to SimV. I'm sure you're correct that aircraft were not capable of it. Not so sure about the pilots. Mount Everest (29,035 ft) has been climbed without oxygen. I assume that flying an aircraft some 9,000 feet lower would be far less strenuous & therefore possible.

First Ascent of Mount Everest Without Oxygen
Italy's Reinhold Messner and Austria's Peter Habeler made the first successful ascent of Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen on May 8, 1978. This feat is regarded by many purist mountaineers as the first "true" ascent of Everest, since the use of oxygen effectively "lowers" the height of the mountain by several thousand feet.

However, as I mentioned before I don't know where any references to combat at 20,000 feet were made. It's possible he was mistaken. I'll try to confirm this when I next see him.

PS. Thanks for the link.

[OTTOL]

  Just to throw a wrench in the gears of the majority........    



                                                                 
       Alt. in feet                   Time of usefull consciousness
          40,000                               15 seconds
          35.000                               20 seconds
          30,000                               30 seconds
          28,000                                1 minute
          26,000                                2 minutes
          24,000                                3 minutes
          22,000                                6 minutes
          20,000                               10 minutes
          15,000                               Indefinite

These are the commonly accepted numbers used by the FAA. Personally, I used to fly a Navajo (unpressurized) at 15,000 feet. It was very cold(I didn't trust the Janitrol!) but not uncomfortable. On two occasions I flew the same airplane at 17,000 feet but for no more than 20minutes and with supp. Oxygen within easy reach.
As far as aircraft of the time being able to climb to those altitudes. The following is from a brief history of BMW that I found on the net:  In 1917, BMW's first aircraft engine went into production, the 6 cylinder type IIIa. In 1919, using an aircraft powered by it's succesor, the Type IV, Franz Zemo Diemler set an altitude record of 9,760 metres(32,013 ft.).
The probable reality is that 99% of the dogfights DID take place below 9,000 feet but that does not mean it couldn't or didn't occur. Also, the combat early in the war took place with sidearms, not fixed, large caliber weapons. Which might lessen the importance of aircraft position and consequently the need for abrupt maneuvers.
Given the lack of knowledge regarding usefull consciousness vs. altitude and perhaps the heat of battle combined with a freezing blast of air at those altitudes, I can envision combat taking place under those circumstances.

[Hagar]

Thanks OTTOL for your comments & also reminding me about this topic. After doing some research I think I've answered my own question, at least for the early part of WWI. I got to thinking that the most likely combat at high altitudes would involve airships. The later Zeppelins could & did operate up to 20,000 feet. I've found no mention of oxygen being used by the crews.

The first German airship brought down over Britain was an early Schutte-Lanz SL-11. (All German airships were commonly referred to as Zeppelins.) It was shot down in the early hours of 3rd September 1916 by a specially modified BE.2c flown as a single-seater nightfighter. The British pilot Lieutenant William Leefe-Robinson was awarded the Victoria Cross for his efforts. This is a copy of his actual patrol report written soon after landing.

From: Lieutenant Leefe-Robinson,
Sutton's Farm.
To: The Officer Commanding
No. 39 H. D. Squadron.

Sir:
I have the honour to make the following report on night patrol made by me on the night of the 2-3 instant. I went up at about 11.08 p.m. on the night of the second with instructions to patrol between Sutton's Farm and Joyce Green.
I climbed to 10,000 feet in fifty-three minutes. I counted what I thought were ten sets of flares - there were a few clouds below me, but on the whole it was a beautifully clear night. I saw nothing until 1.10 a.m., when two searchlights picked up a Zeppelin S.E. of Woolwich. The clouds had collected in this quarter and the searchlights had some difficulty in keeping on the airship. By this time I had managed to climb to 12,000 feet and I made in the direction of the Zeppelin - which was being fired on by a few anti-aircraft guns - hoping to cut it off on its way eastward. I very slowly gained on it for about ten minutes. I judged it to be about 800 feet below me and I sacrificed some speed in order to keep the height. It went behind some clouds, avoiding the searchlight, and I lost sight of it. After fifteen minutes of fruitless search I returned to my patrol.

I managed to pick up and distinguish my flares again. At about 1.50 a.m. I noticed a red glow in the N.E. of London. Taking it to be an outbreak of fire, I went in that direction. At 2.05 a Zeppelin was picked up by the searchlights over N.N.E. London (as far as I could judge).

Remembering my last failure, I sacrificed height (I was at about 12,900 feet) for speed and nosed down in the direction of the Zeppelin. I saw shells bursting and night tracers flying around it. When I drew closer I noticed that the anti- aircraft aim was too high or too low; also a good many shells burst about 800 feet behind-a few tracers went right over. I could hear the bursts when about 3,000 feet from the Zeppelin. I flew about 800 feet below it from bow to stem and distributed one drum among it (alternate New Brock and Pomeroy). It seemed to have no effect; I therefore moved to one side and gave them another drum along the side - also without effect. I then got behind it and by this time I was very close - 500 feet or less below, and concentrated one drum on one part (underneath rear). I was then at a height of 11,500 feet when attacking the Zeppelin.

I had hardly finished the drum before I saw the part fired at, glow. In a few seconds the whole rear part was blazing. When the third drum was fired, there were no searchlights on the Zeppelin, and no and-aircraft was firing. I quickly got out of the way of the falling, blazing Zeppelin and, being very excited, fired off a few red Very lights and dropped a parachute flare.

Having little oil or petrol left, I returned to Sutton's Farm, landing at 2.45 a.m. On landing, I found the Zeppelin gunners had shot away the machine-gun wire guard, the rear part of my centre section, and had pierced the main spar several times.

I have the honour to be, sir,
Your obedient servant,
(Signed) W. Leefe-Robinson, Lieutenant
No. 39 Squadron, R.F.C.

PS. BE.2c of No. 39 Squadron similar to the one flown by Leefe-Robinson. Some examples had the front cockpit faired over.

[OTTOL]

Thank YOU!

Great story and accompanying picture. What a time to have lived!  :o