WWI dogfights

[Hagar]

I bumped into an old friend today. While we were chatting he mentioned that he was very doubtful of the claim that WWI combat sometimes took place at extreme altitudes like 20,000 feet. He & his brother decided to check this out on a Tiger Moth some years ago. He told me that by the time they had struggled up to 12,000 feet they were almost out of fuel & the aircraft was wallowing around & almost uncontrollable. This is something I was aware of but never really thought about before. Any comments?

This is Vic Wheele, the friend I mentioned. I've known him for over 40 years. Now in his late 70s he's a highly experienced pilot & not prone to telling tall stories. With the things he's done he doesn't have to.



PS. He also told me he had his first flight in a Supermarine Walrus from Shoreham in 1942. He was a 16 year-old air cadet.

[Woodlouse2002]

I would be suspect at dogfights taking place at 20,000 feet in WWI. Simply because those sorts of altitudes require oxygen. Which is pretty sparse there. And I don't think they'd put supplies in their aircraft then.

[Hagar]

I agree Woody. We also discussed that point although many things were done in the old days that wouldn't be considered or allowed now.

[ozzy72]

I don't think it would be feasible Doug, speaking as a parachutist we're not meant to jump from above 12,500 without oxygen as you are liable to join the ranks of the unconcious, rapidly followed by the dead unless you have a BOD (Barometric Opening Device).
I've jumped from 14000 feet once and I felt terrible.
I'd say it would be impossible to fly at that height without oxygen, and I doubt those early internal combustion engines could have coped without a supercharger.... I'd say that it might have been an instrument problem....
Just my 2 pence worth

Mark

[RichieB16]

I agree with you guys.  I really doubt that those old dogflights took place above 10,000 very often-let alone 20,000.  Not only a lack of oxygen but I just don't see those little planes struggling up there.

I always assumed that the majority of dogflights took place near the ground-that would explain why so many WWI aircraft were destroyed by ground machine gun fire.

[Felix/FFDS]

While the methods existed, and the fighters *could* get to those heights, (150 BR1 engined Camel could get to 22,500, the Fokker D.VIII to 19,600ft), I doubt that dogfights could be maintained at those heights.

Even in sims, it's very easy to start high and end up low..

A more comfortable service height would probably be 10K, give or take....

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Well Folks:

[ozzy72]

Doug I'd be really interested to see any pics of their log-books and the like

Mark

[Felix/FFDS]

Doug I'd be really interested to see any pics of their log-books and the like

Mark

Yes, Doug, Ozzy would like some proof that there were people actaully flying before Reggie invented the Spitfire ...

[ozzy72]

Felix I know there were They were called pigeons And they emptied their bowels all over the automobile! Some things never change

[Hagar]

It would be great if you can get more details Doug. The only reason I asked about this is that Vic specifically mentioned it.

We were talking about the old days when his brother Ron was alive. They must have read reports of combat actually taking place at these altitudes which is why they decided to try it out for themselves. OK, the Tiger Moth might not have the same performance as a Camel or Fokker D.VIII, especially with 2 people aboard, but it would give a pretty good idea of what it was like. I know about the temperatures but those WWI pilots were used to extreme cold. (I've read about early high altitude Spitfires in WWII that had no heating for the pilot.)

The main thing he was concerned about was the time it took to get to 12,000 feet & the fact that it used up almost all their fuel. The Tiger has a maximum 2 1/2 hour range in normal circumstances. He said that the aircraft was almost uncontrollable & it would have been impossible for them to go any higher. He couldn't see how it would have been possible to fight at even that altitude.

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Okay Folks...will see what I can dig up .

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

[ozzy72]

Thanks Doug

[Smoke2much]

Yeah, that would be fasinating Doug.

I have a book about Richtofen somewhere and most of his combat reports seem to imply that the fighting took place at very low level, up to about 5000 feet.

It all evolved as I understand things through aerial recon. and they would not have wanted to go that high as photography (if used) would not have been able to cope.  The fighters were there to protect the recon flights and would have had to stay at a similarly low level.

Will

[Hagar]

Next time I see Vic I'll ask him for more details. He definitely mentioned 20,000 feet. I seem to remember reading similar reports myself many years ago but I forget what it was all about now. Hope his memory is better than mine.