Polish President plane crash in Russia

[Al_Fallujah]

FYI, new story out today, from a Russian news source that states that the previous attempts were flybys, and that the pilot did not have permission to attempt a landing.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100413/158559617.html

[Ivan]

Why does half of the people in here still think in the civil chain of command...

This was a military crew with both the chief of staff and the highest airforce general on board. As a soldier on duty, you respond to the highest rank available... If they say land, you simply do it or face the consequences.

And when an Il-76 crew decides that the weather is too bad to land, you'd better do the same... as these things have a lot better low-visibility equipment on board

[Al_Fallujah]

Why does half of the people in here still think in the civil chain of command...

This was a military crew with both the chief of staff and the highest airforce general on board. As a soldier on duty, you respond to the highest rank available... If they say land, you simply do it or face the consequences.

And when an Il-76 crew decides that the weather is too bad to land, you'd better do the same... as these things have a lot better low-visibility equipment on board

It is not that simple.
As someone who is military, I understand the chain of command. I also understand that the consequneces of crashing and getting dead, vs courts-martial.

As I understand it the Polish military also has a similar idea to the American military, that you are bound to follow all lawful orders.
I will seek a reference. Finding one not in Polish is proving tricky, as I do not speak or read it.

[beaky]

So add a life as a grounded, embarrassed, shamed and jobless flight crew into the equation, it would appear that the presidents demise could have been of his own making :-?

Matt

No, the PIC has the last word, no matter what. He or she decides, based not on money or politics or anything except safety. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work.



Perhaps he was faced with such a with a choice, and the PIC just made the wrong call.

To me, it's a no brainer:

The two possible worst-case results are:

Unemployment, if one diverts and angers the VIPs on board, or... or death, which, after a few missed approaches, looks extremely likely.

Hmmmmm...

I don't believe I'd need to think that one over for even half a second.

On the ground, given this scenario to ponder, this same pilot would probably say "screw the job- I'm not going to try anything crazy!"

But... that's what they all say.

[DaveSims]

The President putting pressure may or may not have had something to do with the accident, but we all know of someone who pushed a little too far trying to make the approach work, and didn't make it.  It happens to a lot more people, not just those transporting the big VIP.  I read the NTSB reports everyday as part of my job, and I can tell you it is a common occurence.

[Jeff.Guo]

I don't know how it is in Poland, but here, no officer (flag or not) can override the judgment of a sane captain as long as the aircraft is airborne.

To be fair, the TU-154 has an very AVERAGE safety record, it ain't dangerous, but it ain't a bundle of bubble wrap either. In my opinion, that pilot was nothing short of a complete dumbass putting his aircraft in a situation like that, especially when carrying VERY PRECIOUS cargo. There is absolutely no reason to fly through a thunderstorm in peacetime. Given the alternatives of a funeral on a sunny day or a ride in a limousine, I'm almost certain that man's president would've most certainly opted for the latter.

[expat]

FYI, new story out today, from a Russian news source that states that the previous attempts were flybys, and that the pilot did not have permission to attempt a landing.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100413/158559617.html

Well that article is full of contradictions, maybe lost in translation. I think that this incident will never ever have a hard and fast chain of events that all can agree on. I would imagine that any recording have been "lost" already and that the the data recorder (does this aircraft have one) has been too badly damaged or the recording is way, way to good Russian and Poland are never going to agree about what happened.

There is a possibility that the US military has a dam good idea, but that would involve admitting to activities that are always denied

[Hagar]

FYI, new story out today, from a Russian news source that states that the previous attempts were flybys, and that the pilot did not have permission to attempt a landing.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100413/158559617.html

Well that article is full of contradictions, maybe lost in translation.

Quite. This is what it actually says in the article. "The [control tower] head said three times to execute a flyby procedure. When the crew did not listen, the control tower could only continue to guide the plane and watch it. It was the only landing approach, the plane crashed at once," he added.

The way I read it the pilot was advised three times during the approach to execute a fly-by. He ignored the advice & the aircraft crashed on its only attempt at landing.

[Al_Fallujah]

It is my understanding the recorders were found and in good condition, opened in front of both Polish and Russian officials. That was reported over the weekend.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 094338.ece

[expat]

Just been reading an interview in the German press with the pilots father. Seems he is poring scorn on the language barrier aspect of the crash. He says his son spoke excellent Russian. I wonder if the voice recorder will be made public, but somehow I doubt it. The pilot also has 1930 hour on type.

Matt

[OVERLORD_CHRIS]

1) just because you can tell the President of the United States something like that, does not mean that it will be said. I think many pilots would go for it if they were in those shoes. I mean, I've never heard of Air Force One having to go to their alternate, they probably never even have to overshoot. The case is, when your superior is your passenger, you clearly want to look impressive, you're going to want to stand out. Decision making processes can become compromised, judgment can become non-existent. The result is about 97 people dead in an airplane accident including much of the Polish government (so I've been told)

Not gonna happen on Air Force One.
Protecting the President is JOB #1, this includes, the safe arrival of the plane to and from its destination.

And yes it does have alternate landing sites, they go over this days before the flight, from every taxi route, to bad weather, to alternate landing. And they do not gung-ho it or "go for it". Failure to do so will result in your immediate termination from the 89th Air Wing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/89th_Airlift_Wing, and 99.9% of the time from the USAF.

After all if you can't follow Job #1, Keeping the Commander And Chief Safe, then why would they want you around any other plane?

And I'm not speaking as an airplane enthuses, I'm speaking from experience, from preparing planes at my level to carry: Generals, Senators, Secretary Of Defense, Secretary of State, the Vice President, and the President. The chain starts from Maintenance and goes up to the pilots, If any part of the chain becomes weak you have problems. 
_____________________________________________________

So if every thing the reports say is true, and the pilot did ignore the ATC, that is poor training, and poor judgment on his part as a Pilot, and as a soldier.

[SeanTK]

It was a case of either:

1. Try the approach with a chance of success.

2. Abort the approach and have a 100% guarantee that your career is ruined and that you will be blacklisted by future employers. (Going by reports that the brass has dismissed pilots from the force for such actions before.)

Yes, it may be considered a "poor decision", but it's either take the chance of success, or take the 100% chance of dishonorable career termination.