Polish President plane crash in Russia

[expat]

[quote]I am curious where you got the info that the President dismissed flight crews in the past.

[beaky]

So add a life as a grounded, embarrassed, shamed and jobless flight crew into the equation, it would appear that the presidents demise could have been of his own making :-?

Matt

No, the PIC has the last word, no matter what. He or she decides, based not on money or politics or anything except safety. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work.



Perhaps he was faced with such a with a choice, and the PIC just made the wrong call.

To me, it's a no brainer:

The two possible worst-case results are:

Unemployment, if one diverts and angers the VIPs on board, or... or death, which, after a few missed approaches, looks extremely likely.

Hmmmmm...

I don't believe I'd need to think that one over for even half a second.

On the ground, given this scenario to ponder, this same pilot would probably say "screw the job- I'm not going to try anything crazy!"

But... that's what they all say.

[Al_Fallujah]

[quote][quote]I am curious where you got the info that the President dismissed flight crews in the past.

[HectorD]

My heart goes out to those people's families. An unnatural death is always an unnecessary death. All I can say is that I hope they didn't feel pain and that the proper cause is determined. If it was pilot error, then they payed the ultimate price. No need to blame the dead.

[expat]

So add a life as a grounded, embarrassed, shamed and jobless flight crew into the equation, it would appear that the presidents demise could have been of his own making :-?

Matt

No, the PIC has the last word, no matter what. He or she decides, based not on money or politics or anything except safety. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work.



Perhaps he was faced with such a with a choice, and the PIC just made the wrong call.

To me, it's a no brainer:

The two possible worst-case results are:

Unemployment, if one diverts and angers the VIPs on board, or... or death, which, after a few missed approaches, looks extremely likely.

Hmmmmm...

I don't believe I'd need to think that one over for even half a second.

On the ground, given this scenario to ponder, this same pilot would probably say "screw the job- I'm not going to try anything crazy!"

But... that's what they all say.

[Hagar]

I agree with rottydaddy. If the pilot did have the option, Unemployed vs Dead. the choice is easy to me.

Easy to say in hindsight from the comfort of your home. When I first heard about this it reminded me of the Vulcan crash at Heathrow in 1956. Vulcan XA897, the first of its type to enter RAF service, was returning in triumph from a record-breaking flight to Australia when it hit the ground short of the runway in bad weather conditions. Fortunately nobody on the ground was hurt but four members of the crew were killed as they had no ejector seats.. The official inquiry blamed nobody in particular but it was later suggested that the pilot was under considerable pressure to attempt the landing rather than divert to a clear airfield. A big reception had been laid on & Air Marshal Sir Harry Broadhurst (C-in-C RAF Bomber Command) was in the right-hand seat.

No need to blame the dead.

There's no room for sentiment at accident inquiries. It's important to find the cause of these incidents to prevent them happening again.

[SaultFresh]

1) just because you can tell the President of the United States something like that, does not mean that it will be said. I think many pilots would go for it if they were in those shoes. I mean, I've never heard of Air Force One having to go to their alternate, they probably never even have to overshoot. The case is, when your superior is your passenger, you clearly want to look impressive, you're going to want to stand out. Decision making processes can become compromised, judgment can become non-existent. The result is about 97 people dead in an airplane accident including much of the Polish government (so I've been told)
2) Hagar, while it is important to find the cause of an accident, and to learn from the mistakes. Trying to prevent human error is like trying to freeze fire into a block of ice, it's just not going to happen. Even if we somehow deter that certain error from occurring again, we'll just find a new way to mess up and kill ourselves.

[expat]

1) just because you can tell the President of the United States something like that, does not mean that it will be said. I think many pilots would go for it if they were in those shoes. I mean, I've never heard of Air Force One having to go to their alternate, they probably never even have to overshoot. The case is, when your superior is your passenger, you clearly want to look impressive, you're going to want to stand out. Decision making processes can become compromised, judgment can become non-existent. The result is about 97 people dead in an airplane accident including much of the Polish government (so I've been told)
2) Hagar, while it is important to find the cause of an accident, and to learn from the mistakes. Trying to prevent human error is like trying to freeze fire into a block of ice, it's just not going to happen. Even if we somehow deter that certain error from occurring again, we'll just find a new way to mess up and kill ourselves.

Unlike 110% of other aircraft in this world, Air Force One has every nav aid that you can think of and a few that are probably not yet on the market. Also I would bet that it is is Cat IIIc, unlike the accident aircraft. Air Force One would not be landing at a airport with reportedly non functioning nav aids.
As for human factors, they can be minimised by education. In my line of work it is a legal requirement to attend a course once a year. However, the stress of the situation or pressures from above can push them to the side very quickly......been there, done that, eaten the humble pie.

Matt

[beaky]

So add a life as a grounded, embarrassed, shamed and jobless flight crew into the equation, it would appear that the presidents demise could have been of his own making :-?

Matt

No, the PIC has the last word, no matter what. He or she decides, based not on money or politics or anything except safety. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work.



Perhaps he was faced with such a with a choice, and the PIC just made the wrong call.

To me, it's a no brainer:

The two possible worst-case results are:

Unemployment, if one diverts and angers the VIPs on board, or... or death, which, after a few missed approaches, looks extremely likely.

Hmmmmm...

I don't believe I'd need to think that one over for even half a second.

On the ground, given this scenario to ponder, this same pilot would probably say "screw the job- I'm not going to try anything crazy!"

But... that's what they all say.

[expat]

So add a life as a grounded, embarrassed, shamed and jobless flight crew into the equation, it would appear that the presidents demise could have been of his own making :-?

Matt

No, the PIC has the last word, no matter what. He or she decides, based not on money or politics or anything except safety. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work.



Perhaps he was faced with such a with a choice, and the PIC just made the wrong call.

To me, it's a no brainer:

The two possible worst-case results are:

Unemployment, if one diverts and angers the VIPs on board, or... or death, which, after a few missed approaches, looks extremely likely.

Hmmmmm...

I don't believe I'd need to think that one over for even half a second.

On the ground, given this scenario to ponder, this same pilot would probably say "screw the job- I'm not going to try anything crazy!"

But... that's what they all say.

[Al_Fallujah]

I have read on the same link Expat posted that the pilot was a Polish AF pilot, rank of Captain.

But ExPat, you also mentioned that this is a former Eastern block country and blamed some of the mentality on that. Poland was the always the out-lier. They were one of the first to really resist and break away. They are a very Catholic country. Your "life is cheap" analogy earlier does not really fit with the personality of the few Poles I have met. Granted, those that I have met would be a very small sampling, and all very religious.

*corrected names*

[Hagar]

I have read on the same link Expat posted that the pilot was a Polish AF pilot, rank of Captain.

The aircraft & crew belonged to the 36th Special Aviation Regiment which I imagine is an elite unit of the Polish Air Force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36th_Special_Aviation_Regiment

[HectorD]

No need to blame the dead.

There's no room for sentiment at accident inquiries. It's important to find the cause of these incidents to prevent them happening again.[/quote]
Yes, I wasn't talking about finding the cause. I was talking about other people blaming the death of people on people that are dead. If you are familiar with the Dash 8 crash in buffalo, people still call the pilot an idiot etc. Just let it go.

[Hagar]

No need to blame the dead.

There's no room for sentiment at accident inquiries. It's important to find the cause of these incidents to prevent them happening again.

Yes, I wasn't talking about finding the cause. I was talking about other people blaming the death of people on people that are dead. If you are familiar with the Dash 8 crash in buffalo, people still call the pilot an idiot etc. Just let it go.

It was part of my job to read aviation accident reports so I've seen a few over the years. I'm well aware that the blame for accidents has been conveniently placed on the shoulders of dead pilots who cannot defend themselves. In this case all occupants of the aircraft are dead so we have to rely on the CVR for evidence. I suspect it's quite likely that the recording will be found to be damaged & the dead pilot left as a scape-goat to save people's reputations.

[Al_Fallujah]

No need to blame the dead.

There's no room for sentiment at accident inquiries. It's important to find the cause of these incidents to prevent them happening again.

Yes, I wasn't talking about finding the cause. I was talking about other people blaming the death of people on people that are dead. If you are familiar with the Dash 8 crash in buffalo, people still call the pilot an idiot etc. Just let it go. [/quote]
Perhaps blame is not the word you want. Blame, while it has negative connotations, is the correct word to describe the pilots omissions that reulted in the crash.
Speaking ill of the dead, name calling, degradation. This is what should be left out.