Your thoughts on Garmin?

[DaveSims]

[quote]I have a perfect story to go along with this thread:


So i just started flying this September, (I'm 17) and I'm flying Cessna 172SP's / G1000 equipped and I'm currently working on my private. (I've accumulated only 8hrs.) For my first for lessons, I flew with a certain instructor and I told them that my main goal was to become a commercial airline pilot. After the first few lessons, I seemed comfortable with the G1000, and my instructor had me put on "Foggles"; which made everything blury except the panel infront of me. I must of flew for about 30 minutes with these on (With my instructor navigating and watching out for traffic ofcourse) and I felt that I would have to get used to having these 2 huge panels with all my indicators and bells and whistles. Turns out that I had to change instructors for what ever reason, and I've flown with them twice. The thing is, both times my instructor made it very clear that I wasn't focusing enough on my outside surroundings because I was too focused on the G1000. As I tried to become more aware of my surroundings, I found it rather difficult to NOT look at the G1000 as its prescense is hard to not notice. My instructor specifically told me from now on, we are dimming the brightness of the G1000 so It is dark enough to the point where I cant see it untill I become accostomed to flying using my surroundings. I wonder if I would have this same problem if I were flying in a regular gauge panel rather than glass.

[beaky]

[quote]I have a perfect story to go along with this thread:


So i just started flying this September, (I'm 17) and I'm flying Cessna 172SP's / G1000 equipped and I'm currently working on my private. (I've accumulated only 8hrs.) For my first for lessons, I flew with a certain instructor and I told them that my main goal was to become a commercial airline pilot. After the first few lessons, I seemed comfortable with the G1000, and my instructor had me put on "Foggles"; which made everything blury except the panel infront of me. I must of flew for about 30 minutes with these on (With my instructor navigating and watching out for traffic ofcourse) and I felt that I would have to get used to having these 2 huge panels with all my indicators and bells and whistles. Turns out that I had to change instructors for what ever reason, and I've flown with them twice. The thing is, both times my instructor made it very clear that I wasn't focusing enough on my outside surroundings because I was too focused on the G1000. As I tried to become more aware of my surroundings, I found it rather difficult to NOT look at the G1000 as its prescense is hard to not notice. My instructor specifically told me from now on, we are dimming the brightness of the G1000 so It is dark enough to the point where I cant see it untill I become accostomed to flying using my surroundings. I wonder if I would have this same problem if I were flying in a regular gauge panel rather than glass.

[justalilrandom]

[quote]The problem I've seen with doing basic training in a glass cockpit environment, too much of the required time is taken up learning to push the buttons and not learning basic airmanship.

[DaveSims]

[quote][quote]The problem I've seen with doing basic training in a glass cockpit environment, too much of the required time is taken up learning to push the buttons and not learning basic airmanship.

[justalilrandom]

Yeah, but it has taken a fair bit of work on their behalf and it still doesn't always pan out. There are so many things than distract you in the circuit area if you think about it never mind the instruments...

[The Ruptured Duck]

I have to say that this thread has gotten me thinking all afternoon about some empirical questions.

I seem to come from a unique perspective here, being someone who initially hated the system, but learned to appreciate it more once I got a chance to use it and let it be useful.  Yes it is useless when you are putting around in VFR, but in IFR it can be a big help in reducing workload.  However like in big airplanes, automation can be a bitch if you get in a squeeze.  The mistake made is when an unexpected and plan-changing event happens, pilots who rely too much on automation will try to "fly the computer" before they fly the airplane.  A good case is the AA 757 that plowed into a mountain awhile back:  the pilots lost SA because they had their attention focused on re-programming the FMS and not actually controlling the plane, gaining altitude and trying to back track to find out where they are.  Long story short:  some computers - good, too many - bad.  If the pilot does not rely solely on the G-1000 and other cockpit play-things they will be fine.  Any flight school using these systems should devote a considerable amount of time teaching on this subject.

It would be interesting to do an eye tracking experiment on the effect of cockpit type (glass/analog) on the number and duration of optical saccades in and outside the cockpit.  As a matter of fact I'm gonna go do a literature search on just that right now.  I'll report back later 8-)

[DaveSims]

Something I've often wondering, as I watch Cirrus drivers (have a hard time thinking of a Cirrus pilot) sit with the engine running for 15-20 minutes while they turn knobs to setup the electronics for their flight, do they consider that fuel when planning their flight?  I have seen several sit at high idle (1200-1500 rpms I would guess), while still on the ramp just pushing buttons for almost 20 minutes.  They would need an extra 5-6 gallons of fuel just for that.

[justalilrandom]

[quote]Something I've often wondering, as I watch Cirrus drivers (have a hard time thinking of a Cirrus pilot) sit with the engine running for 15-20 minutes while they turn knobs to setup the electronics for their flight, do they consider that fuel when planning their flight?

[flaminghotsauce]

[quote]I have a perfect story to go along with this thread:


So i just started flying this September, (I'm 17) and I'm flying Cessna 172SP's / G1000 equipped and I'm currently working on my private. (I've accumulated only 8hrs.) For my first for lessons, I flew with a certain instructor and I told them that my main goal was to become a commercial airline pilot. After the first few lessons, I seemed comfortable with the G1000, and my instructor had me put on "Foggles"; which made everything blury except the panel infront of me. I must of flew for about 30 minutes with these on (With my instructor navigating and watching out for traffic ofcourse) and I felt that I would have to get used to having these 2 huge panels with all my indicators and bells and whistles. Turns out that I had to change instructors for what ever reason, and I've flown with them twice. The thing is, both times my instructor made it very clear that I wasn't focusing enough on my outside surroundings because I was too focused on the G1000. As I tried to become more aware of my surroundings, I found it rather difficult to NOT look at the G1000 as its prescense is hard to not notice. My instructor specifically told me from now on, we are dimming the brightness of the G1000 so It is dark enough to the point where I cant see it untill I become accostomed to flying using my surroundings. I wonder if I would have this same problem if I were flying in a regular gauge panel rather than glass.

[Staiduk]

Holy smokes - I think my suspicions (roundly backed up by opinions here) have just been borne out.

I took a walk over to the local airport (not gonna say which one for obvious reasons) and borrowed an instructor for an hour around the city. (For those that don't know, I suffered a serious heart attack a couple years ago and lost my license as a result. Now I get my flying fix by borrowing an instructor for an 'introductory flight'. heh heh...)

Anyhoo; the local FC is pretty typical for a major city - all grey carpet, shiny glass counters and a whole bunch of instructors - the oldest around 25 or so.

They use Cirruses and C-172's as training aircraft.

With G-1000's.

The instructor I went up with was half my age - a pretty little brunette with - I hate to say - a pretty bitchy attitude and rather high opinion of her own abilities.

Which sucked rocks.

Sorry - this isn't intended to be sexist at all; but this chick was a flat-out lousy pilot. Her flight handling skills were miserable - barely what I'd call adequate for a PPL checkride; let alone someone with an instructor's certificate.

Careful questioning reavealed that yes - she'd only ever flown out of this one flying club and only flown G-1000 aircraft - which makes her a far better pilot, don'tchaknow, since she has access to all available information.

No kidding - I felt sick. I hate to admit it; but an argument ensued which resulted in me aborting the flight and heading back SPD.

Lol - I was p!$$ed off; and unfortunately my circuit suffered a bit; turned on final way too high - which she was only too happy to loudly point out. Her squawk was even louder though when I threw in one mother of a sideslip and dropped her onto the glideslope sweet as you please. (For those that don't know, you can REALLY get the 172 sideways - nothing like a C-tab, but she'll still slip amazingly well.) She knew how to sideslip of course - sort of - but as what she calls 'air work' - things for students to practice. She had no idea just how hard you can throw that ugly square box around.
Anyway, public opinion amongst the instructors was pretty solid against me when we taxied back - apparently she's 'one of our best instructors' and I'm 'not a real pilot or anything'. So I handed over my log book and told them to read it this time - no-one had bothered when I walked in. It shut them up quick. Which is astonishing - since it's nothing great at all.
My point had been to look at the first hundred hours; but they were more surprised by the totals - to these guys 962 hours is apparently a lot.

[beaky]

These are pilots? Not in my book.

These folks are being taught to operate the machine - not to fly. They fly using the instruments - by the numbers. The G-1000 gives them all the cues to fly 'perfectly' and this makes them good pilots.

That's disturbing news... makes you wonder who did their check rides.  I agree with you about gliders, taildraggers, etc... but let's face it, you can do all your training and flying in a G1000-equipped Skyhawk and still develop real airmanship. It's not the equipment; it's the attitude.

The most troubling thing about your CFI story is that she obviously is missing a very important stone from her airman's foundation: humility. A wise pilot thinks of him/herself as a student, even if they have a jillion hours in all sorts of machines. Maybe she learned something from you, but I doubt it. 

[Staiduk]

Yeah - of course, thinking back 20 years; I don't think I was that much different. Air Cadet instructors are notorious little Tom Cruise wannabes who give themselves 'cool' pilot call-signs, etc. ("I'm Eagle! I'm Boomer!" etc. To my eternal shame, I was...er...'Hawk'. Thankfully I grew out of it by the start of next year's program...