Turkish Airliner Crash in Amsterdam

[Sir_Crashalot]

Apperently that video in the link Syste provided doesn't work so here is another one: http://www.nuvideo.nl/algemeen/24055/he ... iphol.html

[expat]

I see that no fire and fuel is being questioned quite a bit on the various bloggs, well one thing does point to it, though there could be other reasons.

Notice any similarities in the two pictures.........no rotational damage to the fan blades?
However, like everyone else, I am speculating

Matt

Boeing 7777 G-YMMM


TK 1951

[Souichiro]

Our head of the NTSB also indicated yesterday that there may have been a problem with the engines.

CFM has sent a delegation to check, Boeing has done likewise

[Alejandro Rhodes]

the spoilers were down,see the lead edge

[Ivan]

Nose gear allegedly went through the cockpit floor...

Most people are already released from the hospital...

More info tomorrow from the FDR.
Radio comms dont have any suspicuous communications from passing the border until transfer to tower

[Sir_Crashalot]

There is a video released made by one of the passengers right after the crash. Emergency services still have to arrive.

http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/195 ... a_de_crash

[expat]

There is a video released made by one of the passengers right after the crash. Emergency services still have to arrive.

http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/195 ... a_de_crash

A reflection of todays society, time to take a video, but not help/try to help other passengers, sit with and or comfort the trapped especially when the emergency services have not even arrived. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned :-?

Aside from that, any word of FDR/cockpit recorder data in the Dutch press Crash? The UK are reporting that the Turkish Airline Pilots Association are saying it was caused be wake turbulence from a 757 that was two minutes further up the flight path. The fact that the crash damage to the engines show otherwise, well certain nationalities do let national pride get in the way of rational thought and Turkey is very high up on that list. Not a racist remark, but an observation, being in Germany one is able to witness this almost on a daily basis :-/

Matt

[Sir_Crashalot]

No news on the FDR/CR for as far as I know. They were sent to France to be examined. Speculations here are ranging from lack of fuel to that wake theory you mentioned.

[Hagar]

There is a video released made by one of the passengers right after the crash. Emergency services still have to arrive.

http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/195 ... a_de_crash

A reflection of todays society, time to take a video, but not help/try to help other passengers, sit with and or comfort the trapped especially when the emergency services have not even arrived. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned :-?

Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.

[Sytse]

There is a video released made by one of the passengers right after the crash. Emergency services still have to arrive.

http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/195 ... a_de_crash

A reflection of todays society, time to take a video, but not help/try to help other passengers, sit with and or comfort the trapped especially when the emergency services have not even arrived. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned :-?

Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.

Yes! Let's all jump straight to conclusions based on vague video material! After all, we all know how easy it is to keep thinking straight after being in an aircraft crash!




Anyway, there has just been a press conference with the first reports about the cause(s) of the crash.

The left radio altitude indicator was malfunctioning. It read -8 ft instead of 1950 ft. The right radio altitude indicator was working properly. The crew was using the auto pilot to land. The malfunction in the altitude reading caused the auto-throttle system to "think" it was right above the runway, so the power to the engines was reduced to idle. Because the plane was already very close to the runway, the pilots didn't respond to this as being a problem (throttle to idle is normal in the last stages of the approach). Only when the plane was beginning to stall did the crew react, but then it already was too late.

The plane hit the ground at 170 km/h and slid for 150 meters. The gear and engines snapped off, like they are designed to do in case of a crash landing. There were 127 passengers and 7 crew members on board. 4 American crew members and 5 Turkish passengers were killed in the crash. 28 people are still in hospital, one of them still in critical condition.

According to the data in the flight data recorder, the plane had trouble with the left radio altitude indicator before on two occasions. No further information about this is available at the moment.

A warning has been sent to Boeing about a section in the 737-800 manual, concerning the radio altitude indicators.

[expat]

There is a video released made by one of the passengers right after the crash. Emergency services still have to arrive.

http://www.hartvannederland.nl/item/195 ... a_de_crash

A reflection of todays society, time to take a video, but not help/try to help other passengers, sit with and or comfort the trapped especially when the emergency services have not even arrived. Maybe I am a bit old fashioned :-?

Glad I'm not the only one to notice that.

Yes! Let's all jump straight to conclusions based on vague video material! After all, we all know how easy it is to keep thinking straight after being in an aircraft crash!




Anyway, there has just been a press conference with the first reports about the cause(s) of the crash.

The left radio altitude indicator was malfunctioning. It read -7 ft instead of 1950 ft. The right radio altitude indicator was working properly. The crew was using the auto pilot to land. The malfunction in the altitude reading caused the auto-throttle system to "think" it was right above the runway, so the power to the engines was reduced to idle. Because the plane was already very close to the runway, the pilots didn't respond to this as being a problem (throttle to idle is normal in the last stages of the approach). Only when the plane was beginning to stall did the crew react, but then it already was too late.

The plane hit the ground at 170 km/h and slid for 150 meters. The gear and engines snapped off, like they are designed to do in case of a crash landing. There were 127 passengers and 7 crew members on board. 4 American crew members and 5 Turkish passengers were killed in the crash. 28 people are still in hospital, one of them still in critical condition.

According to the data in the flight data recorder, the plane had trouble with the left radio altitude indicator before on two occasions. No further information about this is available at the moment.

A warning has been sent to Boeing about a section in the 737-800 manual, concerning the radio altitude indicators.

Well it would appear that the crew messed up in a big way then. The 737-800 (like most aircraft) have four altimeters, two baro and two rad alt. Firstly, they should have been cross referencing (when ever I have flown in the jump seat this is done shortly after take off and before landing). If an RA has failed then the autopilot is then degraded. If RA 1 had failed, then autopilot "A" should not be used for approach, if RA 2 has failed, then autopilot "B" should not be used for approach. If they noticed it and ignored it, well they should have known better. If they missed it, there were three other altimeters to reference too. It was reported that at the time it was misty and reduced visibility, possible CATII. For anything above CATII approach both RA's are mandatory.

From the MEL
Radio altimeter indicator or receiver/transmitter.
2 indicators must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
2 receiver/transmitters must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
Both indicators may be inop provided associated receiver/transmitters operates normally and approach minimals do not require its use.

[C]

Sounds like a go-around as soon as the problem appeared may have been a prudent option. Time will tell, and from the comfort of an arm chair it is easy to say - the heat of the moment, far harder.

[Sytse]

[quote]
Well it would appear that the crew messed up in a big way then. The 737-800 (like most aircraft) have four altimeters, two baro and two rad alt. Firstly, they should have been cross referencing (when ever I have flown in the jump seat this is done shortly after take off and before landing). If an RA has failed then the autopilot is then degraded. If RA 1 had failed, then autopilot "A" should not be used for approach, if RA 2 has failed, then autopilot "B" should not be used for approach. If they noticed it and ignored it, well they should have known better. If they missed it, there were three other altimeters to reference too. It was reported that at the time it was misty and reduced visibility, possible CATII. For anything above CATII approach both RA's are mandatory.

From the MEL
Radio altimeter indicator or receiver/transmitter.
2 indicators must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
2 receiver/transmitters must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
Both indicators may be inop provided associated receiver/transmitters operates normally and approach minimals do not require its use.

[expat]

[quote][quote]
Well it would appear that the crew messed up in a big way then. The 737-800 (like most aircraft) have four altimeters, two baro and two rad alt. Firstly, they should have been cross referencing (when ever I have flown in the jump seat this is done shortly after take off and before landing). If an RA has failed then the autopilot is then degraded. If RA 1 had failed, then autopilot "A" should not be used for approach, if RA 2 has failed, then autopilot "B" should not be used for approach. If they noticed it and ignored it, well they should have known better. If they missed it, there were three other altimeters to reference too. It was reported that at the time it was misty and reduced visibility, possible CATII. For anything above CATII approach both RA's are mandatory.

From the MEL
Radio altimeter indicator or receiver/transmitter.
2 indicators must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
2 receiver/transmitters must be operative for CAT II, CAT II Autoland and CAT IIIA
Both indicators may be inop provided associated receiver/transmitters operates normally and approach minimals do not require its use.

[C]

The gear question, maybe Charlie will be able to answer that one.

I can only of course speak for one type, albeit similar sized. W put our gear down before intercepting the localiser/runway extended centreline, and hence before the glidepath (ie, the final approach). Normally about 12nm out. If anything it helps control the speed at a reasonable level without taking more than 20 flap, particularly if doing a low noise approach, where further flap is only taken at about 4nm.

Flying the approach on autopilot is a company decision. The last company I worked for, an autopilot approach was company policy. The present company I work for the pilot has to manaully fly the needles once established or at the latest when the VASI's are seen.

Thankfully my employer is more flexible. I'd say that of every 5 ILS's I'll do, I do 3 or 4 manually, and 1 or 2 using our autopilot, mainly to keep my hand in at the switchery and mouth-music required. Having said that, ours is an old and temperamental AP, so occasionally they become manual anyway. We're also only Cat I.