USAF Tanker Terminated

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USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby OVERLORD_CHRIS » Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:22 am

[QUOTE] Today, the Department of Defense notified the Congress and the two competing contractors, Boeing and Northrop Grumman, that it is terminating the current competition for a U.S. Air Force airborne tanker replacement.

           Secretary Gates, in consultation with senior Defense and Air Force officials, has determined that the solicitation and award cannot be accomplished by January. Rather than hand the next Administration an incomplete and possibly contested process, Secretary Gates decided that the best course of action is to provide the next Administration with full flexibility regarding the requirements, evaluation criteria and the appropriate allocation of defense budget to this mission.

           Secretary Gates stated,
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby C » Fri Sep 12, 2008 11:07 am

BPB... ;) ;D

Good quotes though. I'm afraid it's all a bit academic. The next USAF tanker will be from Seattle - its seems from what has been said recently across the press, interweb, and word of mouth, that to an awful lot of people it is morally and politically unacceptable for the USAF to buy "the French*" aircraft/tanker, however capable it is.

All we don't know is the type it will be, be 767 based, or a completely new solution.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby Papa9571 » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:22 am

I don't really care where the new tanker comes from. I just want the competition to be fair, open, and each aircraft evaluated equally with no preferential treatment given to any manufacturer.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby C » Sat Sep 13, 2008 4:42 am

This is not to say that the Airbus is out of the competition. There are supposed to be three tanker competitions, KC-X, KC-Y, and KC-Z. As I have said before that the aircraft proposed by Airbus is more suited to the KC-Y competition that to the KC-X and I think would make a great choice for that competition. The solution? buy the Boeing KC-767 for the KC-X variant, the Airbus for the KC-Y variant, and wait and see if the 747 or the A380 will be chosen for the KC-Z variant.



As I've said elsewhere, I think the USAF would be far more prudent combining all the competitions and procuring one type, with the reduced costs of having just a single support infrastructure etc. As for Airbus putting the A330 forward for KC-X; they did really have an option. One could argue the original requirement was written to favour a certain Seattle based company...

...whcih may then have led to certain elements in the USAF realising the Aibus product compared rather favourably. :)
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby OVERLORD_CHRIS » Sat Sep 13, 2008 12:01 pm

This is not to say that the Airbus is out of the competition. There are supposed to be three tanker competitions, KC-X, KC-Y, and KC-Z. As I have said before that the aircraft proposed by Airbus is more suited to the KC-Y competition that to the KC-X and I think would make a great choice for that competition. The solution? buy the Boeing KC-767 for the KC-X variant, the Airbus for the KC-Y variant, and wait and see if the 747 or the A380 will be chosen for the KC-Z variant.



As I've said elsewhere, I think the USAF would be far more prudent combining all the competitions and procuring one type, with the reduced costs of having just a single support infrastructure etc. As for Airbus putting the A330 forward for KC-X; they did really have an option. One could argue the original requirement was written to favour a certain Seattle based company...

...whcih may then have led to certain elements in the USAF realising the Aibus product compared rather favourably. :)

The 767 was pushed at the USAF back in 2001 when they were on the verge of shutting down the line and shifting work to its replacement the 787. And like C said, the requirements were written in favor of Boeing, and Congress back then even questioned it "why would you lease/buy a new plane that is only slightly better then the plane it was replacing?" but the USAF never addressed the question, and just said "this is what we need and want", hence the every one always saying "the original plane was supposed to be smaller, not larger!". And also Airbus tried back then by them selves to compete with the 767 with the A310, but by comparison the 767 was far better, and that's why it was chosen back then.

Something I was thinking about while watching a KC-135 take off, wing pods, Boeing has been having a hard time getting those working right, and the air flow issue solved on the Italian Tankers, and these are supposed to be the same one used on the US version, but they are behind on the development of these, not something that you want to hear when ordering 179 new planes that are all supposed to be fully capable from the start.

But as far as what C said about just getting one plane, that comes back to the saying "putting all your eggs in one basket", it's better to have 2 options then to rely on one plane to try and do it all. Yeah it is cheaper up front and saves you money right off, but after a while you will want options to do more, and now you have to pay to modifie your plane to get it to do what you want. And it is because of this reason why the USAF has not listened to Congress and replace all C-5's with C-17's, a move like that would limited what you could do.
But then with politics playing a major role, they may just throw that out the window and say "this is what you need, and this is what you'll get!" As they have done in the past with fighters and some other things.
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Boeing better use a special 767 with higher take off weight, center tanks for more fuel and more powerful motors, or just do what every one thinks they should have done in the first place and make a KC-787, and not a paper plane like the USAF's Paper tanker that was never built.

Northrup, on the other hand can now use the A330 Freighter, with it's stronger frame, and build center tanks so it has a higher take off and off-load fuel ability.

This would make for a true Medium size tanker face off, with a fly off.
Last edited by OVERLORD_CHRIS on Sat Sep 13, 2008 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby C » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:37 pm

Something I was thinking about while watching a KC-135 take off, wing pods, Boeing has been having a hard time getting those working right, and the air flow issue solved on the Italian Tankers, and these are supposed to be the same one used on the US version, but they are behind on the development of these, not something that you want to hear when ordering 179 new planes that are all supposed to be fully capable from the start.


Probably for the same reason you don't see wing pods on the RAF Tristars. The VC-10 is great in that respect. Nothing under the wing to interfere!

As for the A330, I think utilising the same basic wing of the A340 negates the effect, and EADS did a lot of trails around the turn of the decade.

But as far as what C said about just getting one plane, that comes back to the saying "putting all your eggs in one basket", it's better to have 2 options then to rely on one plane to try and do it all. Yeah it is cheaper up front and saves you money right off, but after a while you will want options to do more, and now you have to pay to modifie your plane to get it to do what you want. And it is because of this reason why the USAF has not listened to Congress and replace all C-5's with C-17's, a move like that would limited what you could do.
But then with politics playing a major role, they may just throw that out the window and say "this is what you need, and this is what you'll get!" As they have done in the past with fighters and some other things.


A tanker's a tanker though, as long as it has the capacity. The C-5 and C-17 are designed to do similar jobs, but quite differently, hence a C-17 couldn't replace a C-5. I reckon the A330, configured correctly, could do the job of the KC-135s and KC-10 just as well as, or better. than both.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby OVERLORD_CHRIS » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:05 pm

Probably for the same reason you don't see wing pods on the RAF Tristars. The VC-10 is great in that respect. Nothing under the wing to interfere!

As for the A330, I think utilising the same basic wing of the A340 negates the effect, and EADS did a lot of trails around the turn of the decade.
As much as I used to see the Tri Star in the desert i never noticed that they did not have 3 baskets, only the 2 that come out the main body.

But the USAF did say they wanted all planes with pods, so they could be used any whare, and any time, with out have to rely on a certain number of planes that if broke when needed, can't be used.


A tanker's a tanker though, as long as it has the capacity. The C-5 and C-17 are designed to do similar jobs, but quite differently, hence a C-17 couldn't replace a C-5. I reckon the A330, configured correctly, could do the job of the KC-135s and KC-10 just as well as, or better. than both.

If only you could tell Congress that about the 17 not replacing the C-5's, things would be easier, but they refuse to listen to reason.

But in the SAC & MAC days your statement, would be carved in stone. A "tanker is just a tanker", and the belonged to the Strategic Air Command, to serve one purpose only, give all its fuel to the bombers and get out the way.

But since MAC became AMC and took over the tankers, they thought it was a waste to just have it do one thing. So they utilized it's range for Medical Evacuation, and the fact that they could carry some cargo gave it a secondary mission. So logically the new replacement will do the same too, so its abilities can be maximized for missions.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby C » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:39 am

As much as I used to see the Tri Star in the desert i never noticed that they did not have 3 baskets, only the 2 that come out the main body.

But the USAF did say they wanted all planes with pods, so they could be used any whare, and any time, with out have to rely on a certain number of planes that if broke when needed, can't be used.


Very sensible of them. I suppose historically they were caught out in 2001 with the invasion of Afghanistan - the USN was found to have to rely a lot on the RAF VC-10s (as it still does in Iraq), and hence the rapid appearance over the past 6 years of pod equipped 135s! :) IMO the "Rolls Royce" solution for the USAF is a c/l boom, wingtip hose tankers, as I believe, they intend to procure.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby DONTREADMYUSERNAME » Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:39 pm

good ol' bueracracy....

never can get anything done them selves, "hmm... lets just let the next in line handle it......"

This deal could have been done with long ago, so what if Boeing loses, capitalism is about competition, isn't it? whether it be Foreign or domestic, it shouldn't matter as long as the troops get the best possible....
We live in an age when pizza gets to your home before the police.
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Re: USAF Tanker Terminated

Postby OVERLORD_CHRIS » Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:39 am

good ol' bueracracy....

never can get anything done them selves, "hmm... lets just let the next in line handle it......"

This deal could have been done with long ago, so what if Boeing loses, capitalism is about competition, isn't it? whether it be Foreign or domestic, it shouldn't matter as long as the troops get the best possible....

That is true, but Congress and Boeing did not want what was best for the customer/Troops, they just wanted to win.

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More At:http://blog.al.com/pr/2008/06/tanker_battle_funny_stuff.html
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$3 Billian Cheaper

Postby OVERLORD_CHRIS » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:34 am

Friday, September 19, 2008
By George Talbot
Press-Register

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Northrop Grumman Corp.'s bid for the U.S. Air Force tanker contract was almost $3 billion cheaper than the offer from rival Boeing Co., according to the Pentagon's chief weapons buyer.

John Young, the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, told the Washington Post in an article published Thursday that Northrop offered to produce the first 68 tankers under a 179-plane contract for a cost of $12.5 billion. Boeing's offer, he said, was $15.4 billion.

That's an average of about $184 million per plane for Northrop, compared to about $226 million apiece for Boeing. Young said the difference was notable because Northrop's KC-45 tanker, which would be assembled in Mobile, is a larger and more versatile aircraft than the KC-767 offered by Boeing.
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"Frankly," Young said, Boeing's tanker "was smaller and should have been cheaper. . . . A member of the American public might conclude that Boeing sought to charge more than the Defense Department reasonably expected" to pay.

Los Angeles-based Northrop offered a KC-45 tanker based on an Airbus A330 commercial airframe. The tankers would be assembled in a $600 million, 1,500-worker factory to be constructed at the Brookley Field Industrial Complex.

Chicago-based Boeing offered a KC-767 based on its 767 commercial jet. The planes would be assembled in Everett, Wash., and modified for military use in Wichta, Kan.

Young said the tankers offered by both companies were "technically outstanding." But he said the KC-45 "provided more tanker capability and (fuel) offload rate and was substantially cheaper to develop."

Young said Northrop and its bidding partner, the European Aeronautic Defense and Space Co., also promised to deliver their planes more quickly than Chicago-based Boeing.

Young's comments marked the first time he or any other Pentagon official involved in the competition disclosed details about the two bids.  

In the End the cheaper, better plane still won, till it was axed. :P
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