Why only 2 in the flight deck?

[drummer_tom]

I always thought that their used to be 3 people in the flight deck at least even four? Captain, First officer, Flight Engineer and a Navigator. However most newer aircraft, even the big airbus have only 2 people on the flight deck.

Why is this? Is it because an advance in systems has made people redundant?

[Celtman]

Why is this? Is it because an advance in systems has made people redundant?

As far as I am aware, yes. The flight systems on modern aircraft carry out the work of the Flight Engineer now (I think - but I'm no pilot..... yet )

Regards,
Neil 8-)

[RitterKreuz]

computers have made managing engines easier and have - over time -eliminated the need for a flight engineer on most aircraft.

as technology becomes more and more advanced the systems become easier to manage and use.

also it is cheaper to pay two people than it is to pay three or four or a hundred

[C]

Yep. Exactly that. Computers can now run the aircraft systems more efficiently and without the potential human error that can occur with an engineer, and navigation systems have been in place of navigators for decades - even the VC10 (which has a nav in RAF service) didn't have a navigator in airline service.

Simply, computers can do it better, and save on 2 crewmembers salaries...

[Ivan]

RAF tankers have a FMC + compatible HSI mounted, same with PACE CRAG kc-135s.

Old 747s have flight engineers (not all, some are totally rebuilt to 2 man spec).
Newer Russian planes kicked the FE out the cockpit but still keep the navigator. Old machines have 4 or 5 people in the cockpit
Pilot, FO, FE, Nav for Tu-154s
Add one loadmaster for the Il-76 and most other cargo planes
The An-225 has 2 loadmasters.

most russian helicopters have a FE too... he handles the throttle settings of the engine

[C]

RAF tankers have a FMC + compatible HSI mounted

Not as such. The VC10 has an FMS, but this doesn't have a performance capability like a modern FMC - it is purely navigational. This is all still controlled by the navigator, although there is a single digital display between the pilots.

As for the Tristars. Pass...

[Mictheslik]

Not sure how many in this flight deck, but certainly more than two...





.mic

[expat]

As many already know, I spanner on 737's and the A320 family.
The 737 is a squash with three in the cockpit, however on my maintenance course for the A320, during one lesson, we got nine people into the cockpit. Each time I get into a 737 I get claustrophobic

Matt

PS, those glasses on the "pilot" can only belong to one person I can think of 8-)

[drummer_tom]

Thanks guys that has been a really interesting read!!

[RitterKreuz]

Not sure how many in this flight deck, but certainly more than two...





.mic

Probably a jumpseater... as many as 4 or 5 in a 757 flight deck

[Slotback]

RAF tankers have a FMC + compatible HSI mounted, same with PACE CRAG kc-135s.

Old 747s have flight engineers (not all, some are totally rebuilt to 2 man spec).
Newer Russian planes kicked the FE out the cockpit but still keep the navigator. Old machines have 4 or 5 people in the cockpit
Pilot, FO, FE, Nav for Tu-154s
Add one loadmaster for the Il-76 and most other cargo planes
The An-225 has 2 loadmasters.

most russian helicopters have a FE too... he handles the throttle settings of the engine

That would be fantastic fun. 5 people in a cockpit. Would be like a party lol.

[Ivan]

RAF tankers have a FMC + compatible HSI mounted, same with PACE CRAG kc-135s.

Old 747s have flight engineers (not all, some are totally rebuilt to 2 man spec).
Newer Russian planes kicked the FE out the cockpit but still keep the navigator. Old machines have 4 or 5 people in the cockpit
Pilot, FO, FE, Nav for Tu-154s
Add one loadmaster for the Il-76 and most other cargo planes
The An-225 has 2 loadmasters.

most russian helicopters have a FE too... he handles the throttle settings of the engine

That would be fantastic fun. 5 people in a cockpit. Would be like a party lol.

Ever seen that cockpit video of the Cubana ilyushin... on landing the FE (who is sitting sideways) handles the throttle, not the pilot. the pilot asks for more or less power while on approach

[chornedsnorkack]

As many already know, I spanner on 737's and the A320 family.
The 737 is a squash with three in the cockpit, however on my maintenance course for the A320, during one lesson, we got nine people into the cockpit. Each time I get into a 737 I get claustrophobic

There are 737-s with flight engineer.

No DC-9s, though. Douglas built a low MTOW version DC-9 which would be legal to fly without FE.

[C]

That would be fantastic fun. 5 people in a cockpit. Would be like a party lol.

Ever seen that cockpit video of the Cubana ilyushin... on landing the FE (who is sitting sideways) handles the throttle, not the pilot. the pilot asks for more or less power while on approach

Funnily enough, that's also exactly how it's done on the VC10. The only time the pilots control the throttles directly is during AAR or when the engineer needs a pee.

[expat]

As many already know, I spanner on 737's and the A320 family.
The 737 is a squash with three in the cockpit, however on my maintenance course for the A320, during one lesson, we got nine people into the cockpit. Each time I get into a 737 I get claustrophobic

There are 737-s with flight engineer.

I can find nothing on the internet or in any 737 documentation that I have. From day one the 737 was  was designed for a 2 man crew only. The name of the prototype was, appropriately enough, "Crew 'O Two."
Some companies may have flown with  three in the cockpit to begin with, but the "flight engineer" would have had nothing much to do. If you have been in a 737 cockpit you would have seen that it is a very small two man office. However if you can provide more information then I would be pleased to read about it. I am not to big to be corrected.

Matt