Firearm Discharged on US Airways Flight

[Xyn_Air]

Overheard on CVR:

"Hey, y'all, watch this!"



Seriously, I am glad that no one was injured.

Darrin

[an-225]

I realise that a gunshot from a handgun would not cause explosive decompression - but still, is flying an airplane with a hole in the PFD/overhead/FMC/whatever, acceptable?

Tweek - I never suggested that the pilots have an arsenal of firearms to choose from, that was just a bit of humour in the SimV spirit.

[expat]

I realise that a gunshot from a handgun would not cause explosive decompression - but still, is flying an airplane with a hole in the PFD/overhead/FMC/whatever, acceptable?

Naturally it is not acceptable, but if it happens in the air, there not a lot you can do about it. The aircraft would be AOG when it landed and the pilot would be bent over and a slowly rotating pineapple would then be inserted into his rear  :o (and that is just for starters)
Also, if an FMC display, or a PFD display was shot out, the information is repeated in front of the pilot who does not sit playing with his gun. The greatest danger here was death, followed by fire from a short circuit if a loom had been shot out. Think back to the Swissair flight 111. A short circuit caused by a chaffed wire. Now shoot out a wiring loom and think of the potential.

Matt

[Tweek]

Tweek - I never suggested that the pilots have an arsenal of firearms to choose from, that was just a bit of humour in the SimV spirit.

And that particular comment of mine was hardly one to be taken literally...

[Chris_F]

Latest i heard was that it was a .40 semi-auto that supposedly had a round in the chamber when it went off... "d'oh" is right.

I'm not a "gun person" but it seems to me to be foolish to have such a weapon "cocked" when it really doesn't take long to unsafe it and chamber a round and fire it, if needed... an accident waiting to happen.

I am a "gun person" so perhaps I can add some of my knowledge.  The .40 S&W is a fairly new round so most of the firearms chambered for it are modern.  Modern self defense firearms typically rely on at least two safeties, but they need not be active (meaning they don't necessarily have to be the "flip a lever to unlock the gun" types).

The most common .40 firearms tend to be DA or DA/SA.  (Double action, or double and single action).  In both cases the firearm is typically carried with the hammer "uncocked".  Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer then releases it.  Most modern (20th century) revolvers are also DA.

Safeties for these firearms are not always active.  The long, heavy trigger pull required of a DA firearm is considered to be an effective safety.  Thousands, perhaps millions of police and military officials the world over cary DA firearms with no active safety safely every single day without accidental discharge, and have been since the good ol' service revolver was introduced to police forces (the DA trigger pull being the only real safety on those firearms).

I mentioned that most of these have at least two safeties.  The second safety is sometimes a mechanical device which blocks the hammer from striking the primer (thus firing the gun) to protect against a blow directly to the hammer (such as would occur by dropping the gun).

The advantage of this type of system over a "active" safety system requiring a switch is reliability: in the heat of the moment all one has to do to fire the firearm is pull the trigger.  This is a huge advantage for users who don't use their firearms regularly (police officers being a good example).

As for carying the firearm loaded, these firearms are designed to be carried loaded and chambered.  The other essential element of the safety system is the holster.  A holster should keep the trigger protected from snagging on stuff and keep the gun firmly planted until it is needed.  A realistic scenario could involve an improperly holstered firearm coming loose, trigger snagging on some object, getting pulled and fired.

Frankly it could happen to anyone, police officer, air marshal, pilot, citizen, soldier, anyone.  Training can help a lot here, but more importantly I think is proper equipment in the form of a quality holster.  I don't think many would clammor for regulations involving the types of holsters pilots and air marshals can use, but that's probably what's needed.

[machineman9]

"Hey, y'all, watch this!"

Too funny.

[OVERLORD_CHRIS]

Any word yet on what happened?

[beaky]

Frankly it could happen to anyone, police officer, air marshal, pilot, citizen, soldier, anyone.  

Do tell...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/46491/pol ... classroom/

What you say about the gun involved in the aircrew accident makes a lot of sense; I can see how it might happen. But IMHO, in that situation, where an assailant or hijacker would have to spend quite some time trying to breach a locked, reinforced door, it seems silly to carry the gun on board without full safety engaged, and in a holster. These pilots are not out there in the cabin like the marshals, nor are they cops or soldiers on patrol.
Something tells me the weapon was not even in a holster when it happened...even in the ready state you describe, it'd be pretty hard to fire it accidentally if you're not handling it.... yes?

You could still be right about the holsters... but in the end, it's all about good discipline. It's a thing you can hold in your hand that can kill somebody with  the movement of a finger. You don't casually handle something like that , no matter how long you've been carrying one.

That video clip reminds me of a fairly recent accident in NYC where another PO managed to shoot himself with his handgun because he was cleaning it..... not only with the clip in place... but with a round in the chamber.  Not good.  ::)

[Slotback]

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/ge ... n/3903133/

Pics there.

[an-225]

And that particular comment of mine was hardly one to be taken literally...

I don't know, that Sepecat Jaguar in your sig makes everyone take you seriously.  ;D *even if every weapons pylon is clean*

[Brett_Henderson]

Parliamentary, firearm discussion, point of order (finger nails on a chalk board):

MAGAZINE    (not clip )  

[beaky]

Parliamentary, firearm discussion, point of order (finger nails on a chalk board):

MAGAZINE    (not clip )  

Easier to type...

[Chris_F]

.
Something tells me the weapon was not even in a holster when it happened...even in the ready state you describe, it'd be pretty hard to fire it accidentally if you're not handling it.... yes?

You could still be right about the holsters... but in the end, it's all about good discipline.

It is fairly hard to accidently fire a self defense gun, but certainly not impossible.  The trigger pull on my firearm (coincidentally a .40S&W Semi-auto DA/SA, probably very similar to the one here) is pretty stiff and long.  But if it's pulled then it will go off.

Discipline is essential, and this I'm afraid is something that many firearms users (including the police officer in your video) lack.  The club I took self-defense lessons with REQUIRED everyone on the range to cary a loaded firearm (the only time you were allowed to have an unloaded gun is when you fired it dry, immediately after which you were expected to load and holster).  The idea was this: if you're going to go out in public with a loaded firearm you'd better get used to carying one around the range.  You couldn't ever assume your gun wasn't loaded because you always knew it was loaded, and I'll tell you, folks handled their firearms much more safely in that environment then they did when target shooting (and assumedly leaving their guns unloaded when not actively shooting them).  In a full season of 30 people carying and shooting and re-holstering there wasn't a single accidnetal discharge.  It's all down to discipline.  

The holster is THE critical piece of safety gear, and it's often overlooked.  Most folks just buy a cheap holster to hold their gun, but really you need a holster that will absolutely hold your gun when you don't need it, absolutely protect the trigger, and yield your gun to your hand immediately when you do need it.  I can only assume the firearm was not in the holster when it discharged, but I don't know if it was intentionally not in its holster or unintentionally not in its holster.  If the pilot was using a cheap holster then it's possible the firearm could have fallen out of its holster without the pilot noticing.  That would be a fairly dangerous situation.

Although a pilot probably has a lot of time to prepare a firearm if someone tries to break in the door, there's always the possibility that a step will be missed.  Keep the gun loaded but unchambered and the pilot may forget to chamber.  Use a firearm with an active safety and the pilot may forget to disengage the safety (it takes practice to build the muscle memorty to make sure you disengage the safety every time without fail).  It doesn't matter how much time is given the pilot, it's the possiblity of mistake that's the problem.

The reason police departments today use DA or DA/SA autos typically without active safeties (the Glock being a popular example) is because of the training requirement.  Officers will likely only discharge their firearms once a year, as they're often only required to qualify annually and most don't shoot in between.  Departments want easy to use firearms that are pretty foolproof, that's a DA or DA/SA (or better yet, a revolver, but those aren't popular anymore).  A pilot?  Well, I'd bet most of them don't shoot often either.  A "gun person" will be better off than a "non-gun person" regardless since they have a lot of practice safely handling and operating firearms.  The folks who get in to trouble tend to be those folks who don't get the same experience (I would guess the officer in the posted video would be in this category) and don't have that almost instinctive feel for gun safety and operation that "gun people" have.

[Wii]

Accidents happen. Would you rather have a pilot that accidentally shoots his leg or a hijacker kill the unarmed pilots and kill some hundred people?
IMO mind you.

[beaky]

Accidents happen. Would you rather have a pilot that accidentally shoots his leg or a hijacker kill the unarmed pilots and kill some hundred people?
IMO mind you.

A good point...but  I'm not arguing against guns on the flight deck or in the hands of the police or even private citizens; I'm arguing against indiscipline when handling something dangerous.
"Safety is no accident"... pilots in particular are expected to understand what that really means.