Hmmmm... this could be the one

[beaky]

Still  shopping for a first plane, after finally narrowing it down to a Cessna 140 of some kind.
I'd initially ruled out this one because it's not equipped for IFR and it has the fabric wings, but the price has come down again and it's so close to home that I'd be a fool not to go look, at least. Spoke to the owner and I will be meeting him up there at Greenwood Lake tomorrow to kick the tires and maybe fly it.

I was going to wait to mention it here until after that inspection, but I'm just kind of excited.

I queried my new friends/C140 gurus the Morrises and L. pointed out quite a few things she saw even in these lousy pics... none of them bad. She also pointed out that there's a lot I could legally do myself to fix it up; I will get details on that later.

The price of this bird has dropped over $5K in the last few months; he had it on eBay but gave up. I'd seen that and assumed je'd sold it... then he put it back up on the Cessna site. Got my attention.

He's recently ex-Navy, in grad school, and his wife is due with their 2nd child this summer... and he's paying $400/month for the hangar. "Motivated seller", as they say.
I feel bad for him (he loves this old thing), but I know he'll feel better passing it on to someone else who will also foolishly worship it.

Meanwhile, although it's a bit ratty cosmetically, a lot of the missing fabric inside will make it easier to check for corrosion.

What's got me thinking again about this one is the fact that for the same amount I'd spend on a 140A with some sort of crude outdated IFR panel and a nearly run-out O-200, I could get this lighter ship with a fairly fresh O-235 (!!) and a climb prop and upgrade the panel for IFR with some modern stuff... thinking of avoiding the vaccuum thing altogether with TruTrack and Blue Mountain stuff, or equivalent. It's amazing how inexpensive some of thise gizmos are now.
 According to the owner, because he put in a fuel flow meter, he can work the 235 for typical 140 consumption rates in cruise, and although it would be faster with a cruise prop, with the climb prop and the extra horses it's a very worry-free high-DA/short runway/heavy load airplane. I prefer performance on that side of the scale, myself... a few knots either way in cruise don't bother me none.
And it's recently had most of the potentially-nasty "gotcha" things done; the only near-future concerns would be the brakes and maybe potential corrosion where the paint is coming off... nothing major. It already has modern harnesses, a transponder, and I think an ELT (little whip on rear fuselage). The wings should stay in one piece for some time, even if I store it outdoors (which, I'm afraid, I'd have to do- for a little while, anyway).



http://www.cessna120-140.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5236

Another pic (better view):

http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/N2205N.html

[Ben R]

Wow, thats a beauty mate!

I wish you the best of luck on purchasing this lovely bird.

Coor, your own plane, every simv members dream

Ben

[Brett_Henderson]

Something just looks "right" about that plane...  Can't put my finger on it (maybe  'cause the yokes are already turned upside down, and I'll be able to climg into it.. lol  :D  )..

Have you got a feel for what it will cost to "IFR-ize" one of these planes ? Vacuum-pump/DG/Attitude-indicator, nav/com and an ILS/VOR indicator ?

Is that how it's even done ? Does it have a vacuum pump? Can they be IFR legal with electric DGs and AIs ?

[beaky]

Something just looks "right" about that plane...  Can't put my finger on it (maybe  'cause the yokes are already turned upside down, and I'll be able to climg into it.. lol  :D  )..

Have you got a feel for what it will cost to "IFR-ize" one of these planes ? Vacuum-pump/DG/Attitude-indicator, nav/com and an ILS/VOR indicator ?

Is that how it's even done ? Does it have a vacuum pump? Can they be IFR legal with electric DGs and AIs ?

LOL- could you really fit in there if the yokes wewre upside-down? I hate the look of that, was thinking I should flip them, but if that's what it takes to get people in there with me, I could live with it.

Having not even seen the plane yet, I also get the feeling that I will like it. Maybe it's the value of such a plane for that price (which may go down if I play my cards right).

No vac pump... but I'm beginning to think that's good.

For IFR, it needs a horizon, a DG, another comm radio (my preference), and some sort of approach/nav avionics.
Been researching options for that.

I'm not 100% sure of the legality of something like those Trutrack units, but if you don't know about them, look at the website. The ADI they make is very cool: half-mech, half electronic AI, no gyros so no vac pump, etc etc... real fluid tube with ball; the ADI indicates rate as well as attitude, and for a total of $1200 you get one with a dumbed-down GPS inside that will give you a good heading indication, so no DG needed... and a Li-on backup good for 1 hr.

Talk about an easy scan! There's a lot of functionality in that little baby. You can't really tumble it, and if you do get past 90 degrees in roll, it will cue you to recover with red arrows.

TruTrack also makes a 2-axis AP based around that thing that costs under $4000 (with the ADI) and weighs only 6 lbs, with the servos. Six pounds. Amazing.

I'm thinking instead of VORs I might see about a small panel-mount Garmin or the nifty Blue Mountain EFIS (or similar) that will allow WAAS approaches. Lots of US airports have published WAAS approaches, and I like the 3-meter accuracy (!!). I hadn't considered any kind of panel-mount IFR-legal GPS until I saw that they are really not very expensive. The BM EFIS units are really cheap, considering what they can do!

This sort of stuff is becoming popular with homebuilders looking for IFR capability... from what I know so far, it's only a matter of a certified installer taking a ride to verify accuracy on approaches. There may be a glitch with certifying something like a 140 with such stuff, but
I doubt it. Remember, the rules say "gyros or equivalent". The only snag might be that there's no rules against it, or no forms or whatever for that type. We'll see.

How I would back these up, or if I should,  I don't know... this plane has a needle and ball but no AI. I suspect the TT ADI could be counted on, and how many gyro-equipped IFR planes have a backup AI?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a battery-backed electric unit with AI and DG built in, neither of which can precess or tumble, would be better over time than a vac system driving two gauges.

As for backup approach capability, Narco still makes a cool little VOR with GS and GPS-slavability that's not very pricey... that would be a nice backup, or maybe a good companion for the ADI without a fancy GPS, and be useful if a VOR or ILS approach is the only option.

Total cost of such an upgrade? Hooboy, I dunno... but so far the 140s I've seen with clunky old vac-driven IFR panels are going for $5-$10K more than 05N, with wimpier engines that are all past 1000 hours SMOH. And even if they have a vac pump (no, I have no interest in flying in IMC on gyros driven by a venturi!), that's just an expensive time bomb waiting to go off, especially in an older plane. And God knows it would fail when I really, really need it.



I realize I've been on the wrong track perhaps, looking for a 40s airplane with 70s IFR technology... it might be smarter and cheaper in the long run  to "Jetsonize" the panel and  learn IFR the modern way, although of course with the right partial-panel foundation in training.

Newfangled gizmos would give it more resale value, too... I can see selling such a plane to a noob IFR hopeful on a budget who wouldn't mind a "shotgun panel" if it had more modern equipment.

If I really dig this plane, I will be happy enough to fly the crap out of it as is for a year or two and take my time deciding if and how I want to go IFR with it (and me). Still a good deal, I think.

I'll post more pics tomorrow... meanwhile, Brett, maybe you need to get your CFII current and lose a coupla pounds so  we can scare the hell out of each other in this thing in the crud in the near future!

Links:

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/

http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/

[beaky]

I see now that a lot of these products are not approved for use in certified aircraft (like the TruTrak AP, for example)... but I don't really need an AP, and there are some things still on my wish list that are certified or can be, possibly with a Form 337.
Plenty of time to research further... I might want to get a plane first.

[RitterKreuz]

She's a beauty.

im already jealous

[Brett_Henderson]

I haven't hit those links yet... I'm just going on guts and experience.

IMO.. you

[beaky]

I haven't hit those links yet... I'm just going on guts and experience.

IMO.. you  HAVE  to have a vacuum pump for your primary AI and DG, for redundancy. Your backup to them (in the event of a vacuum failure), is an electric turn-coordinator. You'd be surprised how easy it is to to keep yourself upright and under control; using a TC, compass, altimeter and ASI, when you know your situation (try it in the sim.. set visibility to 1 mile.. fail the vacuum systems and fly around). It's when the vacuum failure first sneaks up on you, that trouble starts. Once you catch that, and adjust your scan.. piece of cake  :). And...If you have an electrical failure, all you lose scan-wise, is the  TC. Without a vacuum DG and AI.. you're ..umm.. screwed  :D

I wouldn't fly instruments in a plane that didn't have a vacuum AI/DG, and an electric TC... and wouldn't even want to attempt learning IFR without them. Surely that's a commom set up on IFR 140s ?

As for avionics... You only need the one NAV/COM and it's VOR/ILS indicator. I'm sure that can be done reasonably..  BUT, man that WAAS is amazing stuff. I know I'm old school navigation..  but, where $$ and especially weight are concerned..  Something like a Garmin430, WAAS-capable GPS and a single, slaved VOR-type indicator seem made for 140s. Your NAV1/COM1 is built in too..   ..  All one package. Not inexpensive, but not all that bad when you consider you get a GPS and a modern NAV/COM.

I'm not likey to go back to "school". I wasn't comfy teaching people to fly VFR... Being a CFII isn't in my cards...  BUT, nothing would stop us from playing in the crud on my IFR ticket  ;).  I have no problem messing around in the soup from the right seat (if push came to shove, I'm sure you'd do fine). You couldn't log it as dual (I'm not even sure you can log it as safety-pilot time, if it's genuine IMC, 'cause I'd have to be the PIC, sans the CFII)... but it'd be fun and educational, none-the-less..  It's not like we'd take off on a long, IMC X-country with the amount of fuel we could carry (and I don't like extended, "real" IMC flying even if we could)... but if there's no threat of nasty turbulence, or ice.. getting up into the clouds for short periods of time is fun...

Edit:..  If you buy that plane (or one like it)..I'll go get my tail-dragging endorsement... deal ?

So you wouldn't fly with electric primary stuff? If you look at what homebuilders are doing (and I mean planes like Lancairs and Velocitys, not just RVs, etc) now, there seems to be a willingness to rely on electrical  stuff in lieu of gyros. And stuff like that TruTrak AP- man, at that cost and weight, it's incredible... and perfectly legal for install in an experimental.

I suppose if I really want to add IFR stuff to a 140 that doesn't have gyros already, I will most likely have to forget the electrics and put a vacuum pump on it (cert. problems and all)... but the lighter, simpler, cheaper electrical stuff is pretty appealing.  I see the sense in vac gyros backed by good partial-panel skills, but assuming a healthy electrical system, the other way seems better all-around. Remember, the TruTrak ADI has a 1-hr li-on backup... providing you with attitude and heading info in the event of a main buss failure. And it weighs 12 oz.
It may only be approved for experimentals... but wow!

I'm almost certainly going to splurge on a panel-mount IFR GPS... they're not so much more than the portables, none of which are legal for IFR, and even some cheaper panel units can provide XM weather, and some are also comm units. Depends on how soon I plan to do the whole IFR thing, etc... I have been itching to get a 396 or 496 just because it's such an amazing tool to have for VFR, though.

I forgot you were not a "double-I"... no matter; I think for even liabilty insurance if I were to take loggable IFR dual in my own 140 I'd need to find a CFII with time in type, and plenty of it. Probably smarter to do that anyway.

And sure, I'd fly some non-loggable "SIC" IFR time in such a plane with you as PIC... if you'll ride as safety pilot with me some other time(s).

As for your tailwheel add-on: there may again be an insurance issue (not to mention a Part 61/141 issue), but if it can be done, I'd be happy to lend you my 140 if you find an instructor with time in type (I know a few). I am very likely to be out of the country for weeks on end in the next few years; that would be a good time to borrow it. With your Cessna time I'm sure you'd get comfy taxiing and landing a 140 in the minimum time, possibly without even bending it. In flight it's a 150 with a little more soul, that's all.
Pretty generous, eh? Just remember that offer next time you get your hands on something really flashy and plan to log some actual in it, say on an eastbound heading...  ;)

[Brett_Henderson]

Noted.. and agreed

[Mobius]

It's getting exciting.  It's got to be nice to know you're going to own your own airplane, flying whenever you want and all that.

[beaky]

Had a look at it today, and the gears are turning... look here for more details.

http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2 ... 1205094851