to settle a dispute

[Hagar]

Wow, thought a few people actually new some stuff on real aircraft, don't care to include the JSF

I can be as pedantic as anyone here if I care to do so. I'm referring to operational types. The F-35 is still under development & not due to enter service until 2008 at the earliest. Not all versions will be capable of hovering. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jsf/

The Harrier was built & developed at Dunsfold a few miles from where I'm sitting. Some of my friends worked on it. It has been in continuous service since 1969. I know it can hover as I've seen it with my own eyes. It can also fly backwards & sideways. Even after many years of watching this amazing sight it still takes my breath away. I took this photo at Shoreham only last weekend.

[Rifleman]

Not picking here either Doug, and I really have less time that what it actually takes to question this....work calls....

.....but wasn't/isn't there a Russian carrier based or marine type which could hover by way of lift engines in the fuselage(VTOL).......my brain is frying on this one......I was thinking there was something lurking in my head, of a picture of one decending onto a carrier in an old book I have somewhere........

...OK, I guess I do sound like all the others....what does it matter anyway.....the answer to the question is still the same......NO ! Airliners DON"T hover ......

[eno]

Not picking here either Doug, and I really have less time that what it actually takes to question this....work calls....

.....but wasn't/isn't there a Russian carrier based or marine type which could hover by way of lift engines in the fuselage(VTOL).......my brain is frying on this one......I was thinking there was something lurking in my head, of a picture of one decending onto a carrier in an old book I have somewhere........

...OK, I guess I do sound like all the others....what does it matter anyway.....the answer to the question is still the same......NO ! Airliners DON"T hover ......

It was a Yak but I don't think it was ever operational.

[C]

I can be as pedantic as anyone here if I care to do so. I'm referring to operational types. The F-35 is still under development & not due to enter service until 2008 at the earliest.

Pull the other one... Nearly the end of 2006 and the first (conventional I believe) F-35 (ie the JSF/JCA) hasn't actually flown yet...

The Russians (Soviets - Yak 36/38/41), French (Dassault Balzac), Germans and US have all had other VTOL types (as has the UK), although none except the Harrier I/II has had any significant longevity.



Knew, also has a k at the front... Mr Hagar isn't our Member Emeritus for nothing you know.

[Hagar]

what does it matter anyway.....the answer to the question is still the same......NO ! Airliners DON"T hover ......

Precisely. I merely tried to give a simple answer to a simple question.

[beaky]

...OK, I guess I do sound like all the others....what does it matter anyway.....the answer to the question is still the same......NO ! Airliners DON"T hover ......

Yes... I didn't mention thrust-vectoring (JSF, Harrier) or variable-geometry types (Osprey) only because the orignal dispute seemed to be over what airliners and other ordinary fixed-wing types can do.


No idea what Russian aircraft you're talking about, but there have been all sorts of VTOL designs other than the Harrier, almost any of which could be said to hover at times.

[SkyNoz]

Intill the JSF can do everything the Harrier can do it doesn't really deserve to me mentioned.

Please tell me what it cannot do, back yourself up if your going to say stuff like that, or don't say it at all.

Because, if your judging that the JSF is not in operational service, then specify that. Second, the JSF will be 100% "everything the Harrier can do it", plus with the addition of stealth.

If that was a half-hearted attempt to insult Doug's knowledge of aircraft, you're only insulting yourself.

Who has been wining in football lately?

[Craig.]

Actually skynoz, the JSF wont do everything the harrier can do.
As it stands, it wont be able to take off a british aircraft carrier in full combat load out. And thats the new supercarrier. They are having to redesign the thing to include cat's just because of it. And this is not what the Royal navy asked for. It also wont be able to effectivly use its vectoring as effectivly as the harrier did in air to air combat to out turn opponents. Yes overall it'll be superior in every way, but there are some key differances that the modern one just cant do when it should be able to.

[Souichiro]

I think maybe your friend means some sort of ground effect.... That when a plane somes in to land especially planes like the Vulcan hit the compressed air over the runway..

The russians tested that effect for use for a Troop carrier.. The Ekranoplane

See the below vid and show it to your friend to see if this is what he means..


VERY COOL CONTENTS!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6HQSNERadQ

You can also just search youtube for ekranoplane

[Hagar]

Who has been wining in football lately?

I don't know what football has to do with the price of fish. You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. If you have something positive to add to the original topic I suggest you do so.

No idea what Russian aircraft you're talking about, but there have been all sorts of VTOL designs other than the Harrier, almost any of which could be said to hover at times.

Check this out.
http://www.vectorsite.net/avredvt.html

[Ivan]

WIG Planes don't hover, and the A-90 uses its 10+ wheels when moving on land at slow speeds. The 'Caspian Sea Monster' couldn't taxi on solid ground at all, same as the 'Lun', as both machines didn't have wheels.

Yak-38 wasnt what you call a success... apart from the awful payload, the lift engines had the tendency to melt the deck when doing vertical takeoffs or landings, even the heat resistant areas.

The Yak-41 (or Yak-141 which is the same machine) is the predecessor of the JSF design. Even the engine exhaust turning mechanism has been copied from the russian plane.
See video here. Dont forget to look at the burning asphalt when it does a STOL takeoff.

Some Light GA planes can hover while landing... given that there is enough headwind. Think about Piper Cub / Supercub and the An-2

[C]

Please tell me what it cannot do, back yourself up if your going to say stuff like that, or don't say it at all.

Because, if your judging that the JSF is not in operational service, then specify that. Second, the JSF will be 100% "everything the Harrier can do it", plus with the addition of stealth.

1. The JSF hasn't flown yet, in conventional form or VTOL/STOVL...

2. I can say immediately one thing the JSF won't be able to do, which the Harrier can...


...Viffing... Or look nice for starters...

Back to the original topic, both the Germans and British planned conventional VTOL transport aircraft (by conventional, I mean conventional in the sense that things like the Osprey are "unconventional" in design). The Germans built and flew the Dornier 31, and the British had a paper design by Armstrong Whitworth - the AW. 681. Both utilised the Bristol Siddeley (later RR) Pegasus. The aircraft had a Pegasus mounted in mid wing nacelles, and lift jets in nacelles in the wingtips.




     

[Ivan]

1. The JSF hasn't flown yet, in conventional form or VTOL/STOVL...

2. I can say immediately one thing the JSF won't be able to do, which the Harrier can...


...Viffing... Or look nice for starters...

Back to the original topic, both the Germans and British planned conventional VTOL transport aircraft (by conventional, I mean conventional in the sense that things like the Osprey are "unconventional" in design). The Germans built and flew the Dornier 31, and the British had a paper design by Armstrong Whitworth - the AW. 681. Both utilised the Bristol Siddeley (later RR) Pegasus. The aircraft had a Pegasus mounted in mid wing nacelles, and lift jets in nacelles in the wingtips.

And another one... JSF can't fly backwards.

[beefhole]

Who has been wining in football lately?

Low blow!

[TSC.]

Who has been wining in football lately?

Who cares? - talking about planes here

TSC.