under the hood

[bamair]

i'm suppose to be flying under the hood on monday...straight and level, climbs and turns...and my school is out of instrument flying handbooks, and my local bookstore in the area does not have one...and i'm going to be excpected to know what is the reason, for this lesson and so on...any experts on this that could help me out???????  

also, assuming there is no altimeter setting available, how would the altimeter be set for a local area flight?  Wouldn't it be set to the standard barometric of 29.92??

[beaky]

Your regular textbook should have information on how to fly by reference to the instruments only, if that's what you mean... you don't need to study IFR-specific procedures for a little PP-training hood time. You won't have to worry about navigation, ILS, or any of that stuff- the instructor will call heading, altitude and airspeed changes, and all you have to do is fly normally, minus the view outside. Not as hard as it seems.
 And the altimeter-setting question is easy. Here's a hint: do you know the elevation of the field you're taking off from (and returning to)?
Based on these questions, I think you really, really need to start asking your instructor about these things... these are very basic (and important!) concepts , and if you don't have a grasp of such things yet, and you don't tell your instructor, you're not going to be prepared for stage checks, solo, or the check ride. Might seem embarassing to forget such basic stuff and have to ask your CFI, but imagine how embarassing it would be to blow a stage check because you never asked him for help!
And before you do that, look in your textbook(s) first. All of these little facts should be there. If you don't have any books, I can't imagine how you made it through ground school...

[Boss_BlueAngels]

You're just working on your private, right?  

If so you really do not need the "Instrument Flying Handbook" just yet.  It's certainly a good investment, but may be a bit confusing at this point in your training.

All you really need to know is the proper instrument scan.  Most places teach the "hub and spoke" (as my instructor dubbed it) method where you start the scan by looking at your AI... then to AS, back to AI, down to TC, AI, etc.  After you look at every instrument, make sure to look back at the Attitude Indicator.  At first you may find it pretty annoying and time consuming.  Right now you may have to spend 5 seconds per instrument, but after some practice, though, it'll take you 5 seconds to do the complete scan.  Pretty simple (to say).

The trick is looking long enough to actually make sure EVERYTHING is telling you the same thing.  You don't want your ASI rapidly increasing when your AI indicates a climb.  

The reason for the lesson is to get yourself out of a cloud without killing yourself.  Clouds are extremely disorenting even when you know what you're doing and being able to actually TRUST your instruments is crucial to your own safety.  All you gotta be able to do is execute a 180 degree turn at this point... keep your TC pegged right at standard rate.  If you do th at and have a timer, you don't need any direction indicating instruments at all... it's just a 1 minute turn.  


No, don't set it to 29.92"... that will only get you PRESSURE altitude... not really what you want.  

What you do is quite simple... set the altimeter to read field elevation.  

Hope this helps, bro!

[Boss_BlueAngels]

Dang it man, how'd you beat me?!  haha

[beaky]

Dang it man, how'd you beat me?!  haha

Always have my eyes peeled for bamair's questions...
And dude- you gave him the answer about the altimeter!![/i] gotta make these neophytes work a little...!

[bamair]

iu98haha thanks, yea i know my feild elevation and i do have my books from ground school ...i  just got confused my instructor said get an instrument flying handbook cause it was a required course material, but instrument certification is my second to last rating in my program....my instructor is like a drill sergaent, no matter if it is the right question and i know it is, he still critiques it...which is good i guess just trying to make me 'better'.... i do communicate with my instructor but i also like to here what other people have to say aswell
well let me correct that i just recently started communicating with my instructor on the level i should be...
also when i turn final at a non towered airport without any vasi/papi lights i get nervous on if i'm too high or too low, i'm always concerned i'm going to let my main gear touch right before the threshold....each and everytime i make a landing i get more and more comfortable its what i anticipate doing when flying now ...my flight instructor says it just takes a lot of getting use to the plane and so on...and when making a crosswind landing on friday i crabbed into the wind all the way until i was right over the numbers and about 20ft in the air, then i noticed when trying to correct the plane to center it,,i couldnt put enough rudder in to get that thing straight, did i come out of the crab to early and was crosswind still affecting me at this point? I say any landing is a good landing as long as the elt don't go off LOL and u stay somewhat around center line

[The Ruptured Duck]

OOOOOOH! fun stuff!

[Brett_Henderson]

This might help.. and it might not.. but it worked for me.

Some people (including me) frown on holding a crab as long as you can and straightening out at the last second.

[Mobius]

I was told that you should turn base to final at around 400-500 ft (AGL of course), but I noticed a while back that I flew a much better pattern if I just watched the runway for visual ques of when to turn, and where I should be.  I found it's easiest and most often turns out best if I was at generally the right altitude and speed until I was on final, but once I was on final, I would keep it pegged at 65 kts (or whatever the approach speed is in whatever you fly)  and what I felt was visually the right altitude.  It's not too often that I am right on glide-slope according to the VASI, but I still manage to make good landings right in the touchdown zone (if I say so myself ).  Remember, you are training to become a VFR pilot, keyword "visual", meaning you should, and you will develop an eye for what looks right while you're flying, in the pattern, on approach, and while you're landing.  From what you have asked in the past, it sounds like you are going through your trainging quickly, and that might make it difficult to develop a comfort range that you're comfortable flying in, but you'll get it. Good luck.

[Boss_BlueAngels]

First of all... like the others, this is all stuff you should already know in and out.  At least KNOW what you should do... actually ataining the skill to DO it takes longer, but you should have the "ingredients" down pat.  Talk to that instructor... he won't bite. lol

Just because this stuff is fun to talk about, I'll put my other 2 cents in! lol

It's tough to judge your distance AGL... so use TPA as a reference...

Your turn from downwind to base should put the approach end of the runway about 45 degrees off your back and 150' below TPA... everything from the abeam spot should place you in a constant 500 fpm descent.  As long as you maintain that you're almost guaranteed to make it to the runway.

[beaky]

iu98haha thanks, yea i know my feild elevation and i do have my books from ground school ...i  just got confused my instructor said get an instrument flying handbook cause it was a required course material, but instrument certification is my second to last rating in my program....my instructor is like a drill sergaent, no matter if it is the right question and i know it is, he still critiques it...which is good i guess just trying to make me 'better'.... i do communicate with my instructor but i also like to here what other people have to say aswell
well let me correct that i just recently started communicating with my instructor on the level i should be...
also when i turn final at a non towered airport without any vasi/papi lights i get nervous on if i'm too high or too low, i'm always concerned i'm going to let my main gear touch right before the threshold....each and everytime i make a landing i get more and more comfortable its what i anticipate doing when flying now ...my flight instructor says it just takes a lot of getting use to the plane and so on...and when making a crosswind landing on friday i crabbed into the wind all the way until i was right over the numbers and about 20ft in the air, then i noticed when trying to correct the plane to center it,,i couldnt put enough rudder in to get that thing straight, did i come out of the crab to early and was crosswind still affecting me at this point? I say any landing is a good landing as long as the elt don't go off LOL and u stay somewhat around center line

OK, good deal... I was concerned you were only speaking up here; it's important to get as much out of your instructor and flight school as you can- they're getting paid, after all (sort of  ;D ).
 As long as the CFI isn't unreasonable and is willing to elaborate on his criticisms if you ask him to, it's definitely good for him to be a little hard on you.
 The "oh crap I'm too low!" feeling is normal; don't worry about it; sounds like you're doing OK. The day you do undershoot, believe me, you'll know- and if the engine is running, you'll be able to deal with it.  But it's surprising sometimes how easily you can flare perfectly  even though it looks like you're going to slam it down on the threshold or the numbers, but as long as you're not sinking too fast and you're not slowed-up too much, it'll work like a charm every time. Getting psyched-out by that approaching target zone can lead to floating or flaring too high (done it more than once, myself), so just think ahead and you'll do  fine.
Straightening out from a crab to land is more an art than a science- depends on so many variables, it's hard to describe it. Different every time. Best way to get the hang of it is practice, like every other part of flying. And VASI/PAPI is very helpful, but those generally guide you to a point well beyond the numbers. You've got to work on setting things up so the place where you plan to flare stays centered in your field of vision... otherwise, you'll be lost trying to make a short-field landing where there is no glideslope indicator (like an emergency landing off-airport, for example... )
And if you're too high, start by pulling back the power. As long as you stay at Vbg or above after that, you won't undershoot. If it doesn't look like you can get to your target without diving and you don't want to slip, just go around. During my training, I was always embarassed to go around. First time I had to do it solo, I got over it. As long as you have enough fuel for another circuit, going around is an excellent choice. More people bend airplanes trying to fix crappy approaches than by going around...
 Not sure exactly what happened on the landing you described, but yes, sometimes there's just not enough rudder, depending on the wind. How did that landing turn out, anyway? Did you drift off-center, or touch down crooked? If you're drifting in the flare, you have to lower the upwind wing a little; if you're crabbing in the flare, you need rudder. But if you're going straight but a little off-center, you may want to just go with it, rather than dropping a wing when your airspeed is low and you're very close to the ground, and make a note to get set up better next time.

[bamair]

i'm getting the sense that some of you think i'm a real idiot and "how did he ever make it thru ground school" ...i get moments sometimes where i'm overwhelmed.. i'm in a part 141 program, and i'm alotted 35hrs + 4extra to get my ppl...and i must maintain at least a 80% on all ground school and so on...so everyday new stuff is thrown in my face when i'm still trying to remember the new stuff from yesterday and refrencing back to what i learned in ground school.
I'm not trying to come off rude, i just appreciate coming here to these forums and learning from others experiences and picking at other peoples brain. Sometimes reading what is posted on here makes more sense then what i read over and over again.  

rotty, to answer your question i landed crooked to the right but on center line and i didn't walk my power setting all the way out like i should have and i went flying off right center line to the grass  :-X
thank god for left rudder in that moment...and i'm not ashamed at all doing go arounds, trust me i think i'm a pro at them already. The only thing I absolutley hate about go arounds is when there are other planes in the pattern and ATC is busy, they seem to get kind of angry....and i'm still trying to balance paying attention to the plane,traffic and hoping i catch that grunt voice from tower.

once again thanks to everyone for good advice!!  ;D

[Boss_BlueAngels]

Nobody thinks you an idiot as we've all asked these questions.  

We were just a bit worried as they were things we asked really early in our training (as you are too)


And I know how those 141 things go.  ::) I certainly have mixed feelings regarding 141 training. lol  Personally I find it adds way too much pressure.  But maybe that was because I had to balance 3 18 credit quarters at the same time. lol  

Anyway good luck on everything and don't hesitate to ask us again, alright?



PS.  Don't even think about those silly guys up in the tower... do however many go arounds as you want!  If they find it annoyin, that's their problem... just make sure you stay vigilant for other traffic! haha


Oh and also regarding VSI... if you're at an airport that has VASI or PAPI... USE IT!  Some airports have steeper approaches than others due to ground/obstical clearance requirements!!  It's generally looked upon as sloppy flying to do otherwise.  Unless you need to take that taxiway at the opposite end... then ya can land midfiend if you like!  I'll let that one slip.  :-X

[Mobius]

Oh and also regarding VSI... if you're at an airport that has VASI or PAPI... USE IT!  Some airports have steeper approaches than others due to ground/obstical clearance requirements!!  It's generally looked upon as sloppy flying to do otherwise.  Unless you need to take that taxiway at the opposite end... then ya can land midfiend if you like!  I'll let that one slip.  :-X

Yeah, that makes sense, the airport I fly out of just got rebuilt a year ago.  It used to have a 1900x32 ft runway with no landing aids or anything, which is what I learned on, and what I'm used to, and now the runway is 4700x100 ft with a 2-light VASI.  Since the VASI only has 2 lights, it seems like you end up chasing it on approach instead of focusing on speed, altitude, and touchdown point, which I feel are more important.  But when I fly over to Madison (big airport), which has a 4-light PAPI, I find it alot easier to use it as it is much more precise and easier to follow.  But at Morey (where I usually fly from), it is relatively flat with no obstacles, and I am just used to gauging where I am going to land from visual ques while I'm on approach.  I agree that it is important to use a VSI when they are available, and they should be used whenever possible, but I also think it is important to learn to see where you're going to land so you don't get dependent on the VSI in-case you fly somewhere that doesn't have one and you're suddenly up a creek without a paddle because you can't fly a good approach without looking at the VSI.  So I would just say, make sure you can guage your approach so you can make a good, safe landing with and without a VSI.

[beaky]

i'm getting the sense that some of you think i'm a real idiot and "how did he ever make it thru ground school" ...i get moments sometimes where i'm overwhelmed.. i'm in a part 141 program, and i'm alotted 35hrs + 4extra to get my ppl...and i must maintain at least a 80% on all ground school and so on...so everyday new stuff is thrown in my face when i'm still trying to remember the new stuff from yesterday and refrencing back to what i learned in ground school.
I'm not trying to come off rude, i just appreciate coming here to these forums and learning from others experiences and picking at other peoples brain. Sometimes reading what is posted on here makes more sense then what i read over and over again.  

rotty, to answer your question i landed crooked to the right but on center line and i didn't walk my power setting all the way out like i should have and i went flying off right center line to the grass  :-X
thank god for left rudder in that moment...and i'm not ashamed at all doing go arounds, trust me i think i'm a pro at them already. The only thing I absolutley hate about go arounds is when there are other planes in the pattern and ATC is busy, they seem to get kind of angry....and i'm still trying to balance paying attention to the plane,traffic and hoping i catch that grunt voice from tower.

once again thanks to everyone for good advice!!  ;D

All clear now; no, nobody here thinks you're an idiot; I was just worried you weren't speaking up at flight/ground school., or that they were shoving you through the course without making sure you were good to go. Sorry if I seemed rude...

Sounds like your training is a bit more accelerated than mine was... but you'll manage with time and practice, I think. And the annoyances of training at a towered field will all be made up for later when you discover you're a whiz at dealing with ATC. the only thing that really hurts is the time and money wasted waiting to get out or in... I spent about 10 percent average of my lesson time sitting on the ground or circling outside the airport boundary when I was training at KTEB...

 And Boss is right: don't let the cranks in the tower cab get to you- I'm sure they'd rather have you back in the pattern than have to close a runway because you pranged the plane there or ran off the runway... but it's a very stressful job; do whatever you can to make things easy for them (basically just remember proper procedures), and they'll do more for you. Those guys at KTEB often surprised me with their patience and kindness, once they recognized a little more confidence and professionalism in my voice.

Boss is also right about VASI/PAPI: I didn't mean to suggest you shouldn't use it, just that you should understand why you're seeing a good indication when you're "in the pocket"; don't just follow it.... refer to it. Because what I said earlier is true: if you can't set up a proper final leg w/o a glideslope indicator, you could get yourself in trouble someday. The time to work on that is now...
Mobius provides another interesting case-in-point about VASI.. be sure to read that post carefully.

 I understand also, now, about that landing: that power should be out when you cross the threshold (although there are exceptions to that rule)... but you know that.  At least you dealt with it OK. Hasn't happened to me yet, but I've come close. More wisdom about such moments: you can often go around quite late in the game, even after touchdown. That's what T&Gs are for, IMHO, not just to save time while racking up landings.
 Good luck, and don't hesitate to consult us "experts" here whenever you want!!