too much right rudder

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too much right rudder

Postby bamair » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:28 pm

anyone got any tips on s-turns, turns around a point & rectangular pattern for my flight tomorrow?? anything in particular i should be looking for?

also when i start my take off roll down the runway besides applying to much right rudder i always seem to rotate badly, rotation speed for the piper that i fly is 55kts, my flight instructor says i pitch to high above the horizion but i think i'm pitching just fine? any hints on a smooth take off would also be appreciated
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby Craig. » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:30 pm

Your instructor is right regardless. best to not question right now is my advice.
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby Mobius » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:50 pm

Rotation speed is the speed where the airplane starts to want to fly, but if you notice it is either very close to stall speed so the airplane can fly at that speed, but not like it could at 120 kts.  So you have to ease back on the yoke, not a fast jerk or anything, just start to pull back to the point where the airplane starts to nose up, you really shouldn't have too much pitch.  I noticed that immediately after rotation I actually let the nose back down a tiny bit (not into negative pitch, but just a few degrees) then pull back up to the climb pitch I want becuase the airplane starts to develop a shake, almost like it's about to stall.  You should know, or remember, what it looks like during different types of climb and so you should be able to pitch the airplane for however many knots you want in the climb almost immediately after take-off.  But remember, your instructor is always right (unless he tells you to corkscrew into the ground ;))

That was kind of confusing, sorry, but I'm really hungry right now, so I am sure someone will be able to help you more shortly. ;D ;)
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby BFMF » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:31 pm

Once your instructor demonstrates the ground reference maneauvers, and you practice them for a while, you will easily get a hang of them.

They're really good practice when you have a lot of wind ;)

As for your takeoffs and landings, don't worry about it. Keep doing what your instructor tells you and keep  practicing, and you will improve. Even after almost 250 take offs and landings, i'm still working on them with my instructor ;D

I'm also still working on my rudder usage too ::) ;)
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby SkyNoz » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:41 pm

Most of the time during your "S-turns" are you referring this as "stall-turns" if it is, most of the time the instructer is prolly whatching how well you can fly minimal airspeed or "slow flight" whille in the very comon stall spin area- turn. Usually it takes several experience flights before you become more comfirtable with the amount of rudder you add into your turns with the relation with airspeed. My only advice is to use what you feel is natural, on how much rudder you use, remember wheather can play a role in amount of Rudder used and Also Engine torque. Otherwise your instructer will always give great advice, just take note on what he says. ;) ;D

*RottyDaddy might also, give you some great advice, "real active pilot".
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby bamair » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:28 pm

when doing steep turns and you hit your turbelence you created why does it either want to "throw" the plane back into straight and level flight  or tip the plane into a more severe angle of bank?
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby Brett_Henderson » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:15 pm

I know you have to be careful.. contradicting somebody's instructor.. keeping that in mind..

I don't pay too much attention to rotation speed. As soon as I can feel that there's enough airspeed for the rudder to give adequate directional control, I just take weight off of the nose-wheel and as as soon as there's positive rate of climb.. pitch for Vy... which is always pretty close to the high end of the white arc.

I got into this habbit switching back and forth in Pipers where one had it in MPH... and the other in KIAS.
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby BFMF » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:21 pm

Most of the time during your "S-turns" are you referring this as "stall-turns" if it is, most of the time the instructer is prolly whatching how well you can fly minimal airspeed or "slow flight" whille in the very comon stall spin area- turn.


We're talking about S-Turns, as in ground reference maneauvers. You're talking about slow flight. Two different things ;)
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby beaky » Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:15 am

Most of the time during your "S-turns" are you referring this as "stall-turns" if it is, most of the time the instructer is prolly whatching how well you can fly minimal airspeed or "slow flight" whille in the very comon stall spin area- turn. Usually it takes several experience flights before you become more comfirtable with the amount of rudder you add into your turns with the relation with airspeed. My only advice is to use what you feel is natural, on how much rudder you use, remember wheather can play a role in amount of Rudder used and Also Engine torque. Otherwise your instructer will always give great advice, just take note on what he says. ;) ;D

*RottyDaddy might also, give you some great advice, "real active pilot".


"Stall turns"?? Eeep!  :o
 No, no, ... S-turns are a ground reference maneuver, not to be done anywhere near Vs, as it is usually done at 1500 AGL.
I think SkyNoz is referring to turns at MCA (minimum controllable airspeed), which are to be done, very carefully, with mostly rudder, at more like 3000 AGL.

 Best rule of thumb for "s-turns across a road" is to choose a road (or RR, or whatever) that is nice and straight and longer than you think you'll need. Take your time and think ahead... and remember, slightly steeper bank entering a turn downwind, shallower upwind- this helps compensate for wind drift. If you don't roll out perfectly square to the road every time, don't sweat it- it's far more important to time everything so you make each 180 so that the wind doesn't mess you up; you want to just be rolling level as you cross the road. Very, very easy with no wind, but tricky with wind- which is the whole point of the exercise, as far as I know.
 And for all ground-ref maneuvers: just remember what the name implies. Look at your "target", as much as possible. Once you reach the point where you can, for example, make a nice turn around a point while only looking at the point, you will be getting the idea. Very hard at first, but that is your goal.

As for your takeoffs: no offense, but if the CFI says you're pitching up too much on rotation, he's probably right. I just have a feeling... ;) For the moment, consider that if there's an expert in the plane during your lessons, it's probably not you. Make sense? ;)

 Don't know the Pipers very well, but if your trim is set right, you should only need a little back pressure, starting when you're nearing Vr (but for God's sake don't stare at the airspeed indicator during takeoff!)... once you get the nosewheel just off the ground, assuming you've got enough runway left and it's a normal takeoff, just hold the nose right where it is. Don't try to haul it into the air; it's designed to rotate with the nosewheel just off the ground. How much is "just"? I dunno; not like I've ever stuck a measuring tape out the window and tried to measure it... ;D             Ideally, you should roll on the mains for a coupla seconds before it gets fully airborne, and once it's up, ease off just a hair, if necessary, to maintain Vy (again, assuming no obstructions and no flaps). That's right; even just after rotation, you may actually lower the nose (a teeny tiny bit- do not just let go!!) And only redusce pitch if you're seeing or feeling or hearing a continuing drop in airspeed... again, you must wait a sec to see what she "wants" to do before changing anything.
 And "book" Vr is to be taken with a grain of salt- it may vary slightly due to any number of factors. Just do what's needed to get that nosewheel off the ground (when she feels "light"), and hold it.
If you're using too much rudder during rotation, the solution is simple: use less rudder. ;D
No, really: you should only add rudder (or aileron for xwind) as needed... you've got to feel it out. Start with a little, give it a sec, then add more... as needed.
Takes time to put all this together, but you have to be consistent.
Most important part of what I just said: Just enough back pressure on the yoke to get the nose up, then hold it right there. All of these great little trainers will happily fly off the runway with small inputs, done at the right moment.
 
Last edited by beaky on Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby Boss_BlueAngels » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:19 pm

I loved practicing ground reference maneuvers... just wait till you get to the commercial ones!  They're WAY more fun! haha

Ditto to what Brett said... after a while you'll just be able to feel it.  There are more important things to watch during the takeoff roll than waiting for that little needle to reach one certain point.  I just look for positive response, check engine gauges and LOOK OUTSIDE! lol  

All you really need to do is pull the yoke back a certain point and HOLD IT THERE... let the plane fly itself off the runway.  Do not KEEP PULLING. lol  That's one thing that nobody ever told me during private pilot training.  In the Warrior III's I flew it only took pulling the yoke back about 3-4 inches and would lift off precisely at 65 KIAS every time.
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby Boss_BlueAngels » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:22 pm

Oh yeah, and as for the rudder thing... I have to agree with the author of "Stick and Rudder" and believe the only real purpose of the rudder is to cover up the mistakes of the engineers.   ;D
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Re: too much right rudder

Postby BFMF » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:24 pm

lol ;D
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