Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Real aviation things here. News, items of interest, information, questions, etc!

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Hagar » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:46 pm

Doug, you seem like a very reasonable person, I know that much from my time here.

Thanks Beefy. I'm sure you realise that I'm not exactly stupid & I know only too well that nothing can be 100% secure. I believe that the US authorities have little confidence in airport security arrangements themselves which is the reason they rely on these air marshalls or marshals (I'm confused as to the correct spelling). Apparently this incident happened on the ground but imagine if it had been while the aircraft was still in the air. It's quite possible that the marshal would have been in a completely different part of the cabin & blissfully unaware of what was going on.

I don't know how long it is since you've been on an airliner but in my experience the aisles are obstructed throughout the flight either with cabin crew serving refreshments from their trolleys or countless passengers milling around visiting the toilets. I can't see an opportunity for anyone to intervene or get a clear shot under these circumstances. I have never believed that air marshals are the answer to this problem & I'm unlikely to change my mind.

PS. My feelings on this might be influenced by living in a country where guns are illegal. Consequently I don't have the same confidence in them being the solution to problems. In fact quite the opposite.
Last edited by Hagar on Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group
My Google Photos albums
My Flickr albums
User avatar
Hagar
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 30864
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:15 am
Location: Costa Geriatrica

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Craig. » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:58 am

[quote]
Doug, you seem like a very reasonable person, I know that much from my time here.

It would be folly to say that the answer is to uprgade our airport security so that it is 100% secure, as, I'm sure you know, that is 100% impossible.
User avatar
Craig.
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 15569
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:04 am
Location: Birmingham

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby beefhole » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:08 am

That's not really what I was getting at Craig-I stated instead that we're not going to get any better, I didn't mean to imply we were one of the better nations security-wise.
User avatar
beefhole
Major
Major
 
Posts: 3804
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:57 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Craig. » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:42 am

That's not really what I was getting at Craig-I stated instead that we're not going to get any better, I didn't mean to imply we were one of the better nations security-wise.

but thats my point aswell. you cant fall into the trap of thinking you cant do better. They have to continually get better.
User avatar
Craig.
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 15569
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:04 am
Location: Birmingham

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Hagar » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:02 pm

I think you have to appreciate the difference in attitude of the travelling public. When I first visited the US I was highly impressed with how easy it was to travel on internal flights all over the country. Simply go to the nearest airport, purchase a ticket & step on the plane, just like travelling on a bus. How different to what it was like in this country where a short trip across the Channel involved pre-booking the flight & a valid passport. Security arrangements were in force in the UK then although not as stringent as they are now. Unfortunately 9/11 changed that for ever. I can't say if I'm correct but I'm not certain the travelling public that the airlines rely on would put up with what we have to for a simple internal flight so they've opted for these air marshals instead. While I think this is misguided I have no right to criticise but this makes it difficult where international flights are concerned.

One more point & then I'll let it go. I found the US immigration services very intimidating in their attitude compared with any I've ever experienced at home or in Europe. I was unfortunate to go by an indirect route via Newark which I had been warned about by my brother who is a seasoned traveller & has been all over the world many times. They made me feel like a criminal which wasn't the best welcome I could have had to the US after a long journey. When I finally got through I discovered that everyone I met was the exact opposite. I'm told the security services have much the same attitude & this is not the right approach to my way of thinking.

PS. I was once told by a friend who worked for HM Customs that an experienced customs officer could spot a smuggler just by looking at their general demeanour as they walked through the 'Nothing to Declare' gate & they were very rarely wrong. I'm sure this must also be possible with potential criminals or hijackers. Somehow I always feel uncomfortable walking through there myself & convinced I must look guilty even though I have nothing to hide. I've never been stopped, not yet anyway. ;)
Last edited by Hagar on Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group
My Google Photos albums
My Flickr albums
User avatar
Hagar
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 30864
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:15 am
Location: Costa Geriatrica

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Staiduk » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:52 pm

This is one of those arguments where everyone is in some measure correct.

Hagar, you're absolutely right to say American - in this case, I will expand that to say North American - security is flawed. It needs to be bettered. The problem though is there is no such thing as absolute security, especially when considering airports.

Everyone do a quick exercise: Think of the security arrangements at the international airport you're most familiar with. Write them down: metal detectors, checkpoints, drug dogs, etc.

Now - in a seperate heading; add in all the things that aren't there, or that you don't know of. Add them to your list until you have an imaginary security system in place that will make your airport as safe as can be.

Don't forget training and motivational factors.

Don't consider the cost - security is very expensive.

Once all that is done; have a hard look at the areas of the airport protected your security arrangements. Are they truly secure? Work on them until they are.

Good.

Now the part that people miss; unless they've been trained to look for it. Look at all the areas of an airport not covered by your security arrangements.

See what I mean? As anyone in the industry will know; an international airport is a veritable city unto itself. It's huge, complex, crowded and very, very busy. It's an iceberg - what the travelling public sees of an airport is the barest fraction of what's actually there. It is impossible - whatever the funds provided - to provide complete security.

If one wants to make public air travel as safe as possible; one cannot rely on a single line of defense. One must establish a series of layers; each designed to reinforce the other. Ideally, it starts before one reaches the airport; with the ability of a person to buy a ticket and/or passport; the visible security at the airport being the second or third layer.
Next however must come followthrough. For safety; you cannot assume you're going to get all the bad guys.

I must stress this, because when people think about - for example - terrorists; they think 'bombs'.

Question for you: What weapon did those ------'s use when they hijacked the 911 airliners?

Boxcutters. IOW, retractable X-acto knives.

Look; other than while actually teaching (and I haven't taught in this field since 2000) I really hate to say this because someone always accuses me of arrogance. Believe me; I wish I were arrogant on this; it'd make things a lot easier. BUT -

HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO

If, in some strange alternate universe I wanted to bring down an airliner, what would I need to do so? Guns? Bombs?
I have on my person everything I need right now. A belt, a watch, couple pens, a cellphone, a Blackberry. The most innocuous things. But the one real weapon I posess in the psychological ability to do violence. Twenty-five years training to do such violence (and live fire experience) is a major factor as well. And believe me - if we met; you would never know.
I need nothing other than that to do terrible harm; and that is the reason for FAM's. FAM's - and mind; I currently train with, interact with and have deep frienships with a number of them - are not gun totin' security guards; nor are they undercover cops. They're a select corps - highly trained and educated; experienced in prior law enforcement and national protective fields before becoming FAM's.

Hagar: Your words:

I don't know how long it is since you've been on an airliner but in my experience the aisles are obstructed throughout the flight either with cabin crew serving refreshments from their trolleys or countless passengers milling around visiting the toilets. I can't see an opportunity for anyone to intervene or get a clear shot under these circumstances.


That is the environment in which FAMs operate; so that is the environment in which FAMs train. I can assure you - they can operate effectively in those situations.

What it boils down to is this: People want to be safe when they fly; but people also don't want to think about having some guy with a gun up there with 'em. They want to be safe, but they don't want the inconvenience of going through security. They want to be safe but they want the measures to apply to other people because they after all aren't the problem.

Hey - I am no fan of guns myself, especially in the hands of civilians. I'm too familiar with what they can do when used improperly; or used proplerly for evil purposes. Just 'cause I carried one for most of my adult life dosn't mean I like the blasted things. But I'm very, very glad to know that the US places FAMs on airplanes.
For the record; my feelings on this matter have changed a great deal. I thought exactly as Hagar does regarding them; until I wound up working with them. I never liked the idea of FAMs; I knew that there had to be followthrough; but FAMs were not the answer - until I learned more about them, firsthand.

The guy in question stated he had a bomb. He reached into a concealed location.

What would you do?
Image
Staiduk
Major
Major
 
Posts: 1070
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:12 am

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Craig. » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:02 pm

They also have acceptable losses in the case of an attempted Hijacking. No idea what the number is exactly.
User avatar
Craig.
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 15569
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:04 am
Location: Birmingham

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Staiduk » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:03 pm

They also have acceptable losses in the case of an attempted Hijacking. No idea what the number is exactly.


The acceptable number is zero.

I hear the words 'acceptable losses' all the time from media and the general public.
Never from those actually involved.

Please keep in mind folks that this is the first time a FAM has ever drawn a weapon during an incident since 911.
Image
Staiduk
Major
Major
 
Posts: 1070
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 8:12 am

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Craig. » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:02 pm

All branches will have a certain figure, that they may consider the expected losses, in certain situations. They dont go out with the intention of that number being killed, but they go in knowing that faced with a certain situation, that many people may die before the situation is over.
User avatar
Craig.
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 15569
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:04 am
Location: Birmingham

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby beefhole » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:04 pm

Well I think what it really boils down to is this-

would you feel more safe knowing-

A) a guy could get a bomb on a plane

B) a guy could get a bomb on a plane and there's another guy, on your side, with a gun

Because you basically have to, you must, choose one of the sides.

Staiduk is very correct in the FAMs are entirely capable of operating in the cramped super-CQB environment of an airplane cabin.  While having a gun on board, no matter who is holding it, is inherently dangerous, I would still want these guys having em.

I have to agree with Craig that there is an acceptable losses number-there always is, even if it's not readily circulated, it probably does exist.

And Doug, US Customs services are absolutely notoriously hideous.  Philly Intl is world renowned for the terrible customs employees.
Last edited by beefhole on Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
beefhole
Major
Major
 
Posts: 3804
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:57 am
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Miami Intl American Airlines Shootout

Postby Hagar » Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:35 pm

I've said quite enough already & right or wrong it's unlikely my opinions will change. People far more qualified than anyone here can't agree on this & what we think won't change anything however long we discuss it. I'm sure they're doing this impossible job to the best of their ability. The comments in this thread prove just how difficult it is.
Last edited by Hagar on Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Founder & Sole Member - Grumpy's Over the Hill Club for Veteran Virtual Aviators
Member of the Fox Four Group
My Google Photos albums
My Flickr albums
User avatar
Hagar
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 30864
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:15 am
Location: Costa Geriatrica

Previous

Return to Real Aviation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 578 guests