Valid arguments against the Typhoon (go America!)

[ozzy72]

my own point of view

With or without your glasses Felix?

[Felix/FFDS]

With or without your glasses Felix?

Details, details....

[beefhole]

Just got back home, the ethernet cord petered out in the hotel room

Well, not to start anything again, just let me say this-

errmm, hehe, I talked to Jeff again and it appears as though I made a minor mistake-the superior US communications he was refering to was during the Korean and Vietnam wars, when the enemy more often than not had better aircraft, but we had better pilots (our pilots recieved WAAAAAY more training hours) and comms.

hehe

silverfox, call me crazy or sick or something, but for some odd reason I don't find fratricide funny, simulated or not.  I dunno, maybe I should go lay down...

And I wouldn't agree that red flag really proves anything-it's an excellent exercise that can really show the strengths/weaknesses of an AF, but how many of the countries that take part have actually been engaged in combat on a mass scale several times in the last 15 years?

And, even more notable, exactly how much fratricide do you see being commited by US (actually, pilots of any country for that matter, not just American) pilots?

I can think of one single case since the beginning of the Iraq war, where an A-10 pilot took out a British truck.  That's it.  Jeff didn't hear of a single case for the entire duration of his deployment-and he keeps track of it, since his job in the states is with the 49th MAG (somehow he got assigned to CA in Fallujah-go figure )

Red Flag is great, but it doesnt translate into performance in the real world on some things.  Once youve made the mistake of shooting down your buddy, YOU DON"T MAKE IT AGAIN.  I can guarantee that.

So sorry about the comms thing.

[SilverFox441]

beefhole, you have to remember that at the time I was serving in an EW Agressor Sqdn. We had a big sign in the Sqdn orderly room admonishing us all to "Think Red!". We always played the bad guys...the good guys were supposed to learn from the mistakes they made with us so that the fratricide was simulated only.

Everything we did could have been done by a Badger or a Bear...

During an exercise it cost a case of beer to get caught.

During wartime the cost would be a lot higher.

Most guys on the blue side thought a case of beer was quite cheap, but expensive enough to drive the lesson home.

[hatter]

Remind me again why we are comparing the Eurofighter to Eagles/Vipers/Hornets? I guess for that rainy day when Eurofighter powers decide to declare war on the United States?

Certainly that will not happen before at least F-22 is 'in' service. That's being really dark about it.

The comparison would be more appropriate, perhaps, with Chinese Su-27MMKs or J-10s, or current Russian frontline models available for export, like Ivan pointed out oh so long ago. Even that scenario is unlikely.

In any case, we should be happy that our pilots get to train against 'superior' platforms. That way, they'll really kick ass when they get the F-22, however much money we do spend it to get it in the air. I won't say anything about JSF.

Perhaps a more suitable comparison would be in BVR missiles; the us scrapped the Ramjet Pheonix in favor of   AIM-120C-5 (which I believe Eurofighter utilizes). How does that compare against MICA, Meteor, the ramjet Adder, R37M? I wouldn't really be too concerned about the Russian models though.

[beefhole]

We're comparing them because twould appear as though all (okay, MOST) Europeans (or at least the ones on this board) think the Eurofighter is the best thing since Denamrk invaded England, and all (yes, ALL this time) Americans seem to disagree.

[Hagar]

We're comparing them because twould appear as though all (okay, MOST) Europeans (or at least the ones on this board) think the Eurofighter is the best thing since Denamrk invaded England, and all (yes, ALL this time) Americans seem to disagree.

Not sure where you got that idea Beefy. I would say that this is simply a case of national pride. The old schoolboy boast that mine is best or biggest, whether it is or not.

Hatter makes a very good point. Not much use having the best aircraft on the planet if the other side has better armament. The RAF Typhoon 2 has no gun so the missiles & weapons control system better be pretty good or it's no use at all.

PS.

I guess for that rainy day when Eurofighter powers decide to declare war on the United States?

I hope I never see the day. I suggest that this is very unlikely & they are more likely to operate alongside each other. We should be comparing both to real potential opponents, not boasting whose is biggest.

[beefhole]

Not sure where you got that idea Beefy. I would say that this is simply a case of national pride. The old schoolboy boast that mine is best or biggest, whether it is or not.

Exactly.  That's why you can't really trust anyone's opinion on this matter without facts.  But am I wrong in percieving that most of the Europeans on SimV like the Eurofighter better over any American fighter?  I think not.  I'm just firing back

[Hagar]

[quote]Exactly.

[beefhole]

Yup, I agree with everything you've said Doug-I just simply brought up the point that whether the Eurofighter is better or not, American fighters have already proven their capabilities as the best air supremacy fighters available-the Eurofighter hasn't had that chance yet (the US has been engaged in several mass air wars in the last fifteen years, and while the Brits have always taken part it has been mostly US planes).  Speculation just doesn't cut it

[ozzy72]

while the Brits have always taken part it has been mostly US planes

Beefhole Britain has lost far fewer planes per operation than the US in the last 15 years. In fact we've lost more planes to friendly fire than enemy action!

[Hagar]

(the US has been engaged in several mass air wars in the last fifteen years, and while the Brits have always taken part it has been mostly US planes).  

Not to labour the point but this depends on the number & quality of the opposition. The USAF/USN will win against most foreign air forces on sheer numbers alone. No contest. The RAF/RN had no US-manufactured front line fighters in the last 15 years yet still give a good account of themselves with obsolescent equipment. It comes down to making the most of what you have & the pilots don't have the luxury of choosing the aircraft they fight in. As the USSR no longer exists I have to wonder just who they think these highly expensive new-generation fighters will be used against.

[ozzy72]

I have to wonder just who they think these highly expensive new-generation fighters will be used against

With any luck my neighbours, especially the one with the two psycho Yorkies that attack anyone walking along the pavement minding their own business

[hatter]

I would hardly consider the two Gulf Wars 'mass air wars,' though.

[ozzy72]

Speaking as someone there in '91 I have to say they were pretty impressive!