A Little Excitement During Rush-Hour...

[beaky]

Saw this on the front of the freebie paper on my way to work this morning: Seems that it may have been due to wing ice (crew declined de-ice), but not sure yet. A few cars on that stretch of Rte. 46 (very very congested weekday mornings) got clipped; one of the injured is still critical, but most were not hurt too bad. I believe one of the pilots broke his leg. Two things about this accident I find interesting: first, that the plane went through that wall more or less intact (although there may have been a door there, I can't remember), and second, that there's a very sturdy crash barrier at the south end of TEB, but not at the north end. There's a very good (post 9/11) security fence, but that's it, and the highway is right there at the perimeter.Maybe because the prevailing winds around here are usually southwesterly, but in the wintertime and on light & variable days, there seem to be a lot of takeoffs to the north... Iwas telling a friend this morning that they have no barrier there, and he said :"they will now". This one could have been a whole lot worse; whew! Teterboro's record is good, though: only mishap I saw there while flying was a light twin that had a gear collapse while rolling out after landing, several years ago. And they're ready and able to get emergency crews on-site rapidly...

[beefhole]

This was one of the most bizarre takeoff accidents I have ever seen... will be interesting to learn exactly what happened.

[beaky]

Yeah, just saw a little snippet on the news where they showed aerial footage of the attempted abort (not sure how they got that- it's from directly overhead!CGI recreation on an existing satellite photo, maybe?). The CVR indicates that they discussed going around, but they didn't hit the brakes until way past the halfway point (too late). I'm not second-guessing these guys; it's just odd, that's all. Whatever the case, it's clear this plane did not want to get up off the runway...

[Hagar]

This sounds like the incident someone reported in the General forum. I understood that a motorist was seriously hurt. Not heard the latest news. There is a risk of this type of accident happening all the time aircraft operate in & over built-up areas with roads running past the airport boundaries & runway thresholds. There's obviously not much point in having an airport with no access roads so this will continue. No barrier could possibly prevent every foreseeable situation. The fact that this sort of thing is extremely rare says something for the safety of aircraft operations all over the world. IMHO

[beaky]

This sounds like the incident someone reported in the General forum.

Huh? thought I'd checked...

No barrier could possibly prevent every foreseeable situation.
IMHO

Absolutely; I didn't mean to suggest that airport management was to blame for the mishap itself... but a barrier like the one at the south end would've kept that sucker from crossing the highway (even if it might've meant greater harm to its occupants). It's just curious to me... at the south end,without that barrier,  a plane rolling off the runway would cross a rarely-used 2-lane road and come to rest in a sort of swampy area, yet there's nothing to keep an overrun from crossing Rte. 46 and the numerous warehouses, factories and offices just beyond. Chances are good that the honchos in charge of TEB will have another look at that situation, as that airport is handling more and more jet traffic (and has been a reliever for EWR for many years). Only bad thing about a barrier would be that when one is stuck in traffic on 46 East (there's a light just at the NE corner of the field), it'd be harder to watch the planes - I've often found myself looking straight down 19, enjoying the departures and arrivals from that viewpoint... until somebody starts honking because the light's changed!
 :D

[Hagar]

This makes me wonder about the proposed developments at my local airport. They want to update it from  the bustling little GA airport that it's been for as long as I can remember to handle medium range jets. Sounds much like the sort of traffic that TEB handles. This involves realigning the main runway which takes it right over a crowded & heavily populated residential area at the southwest end - right into the prevailing wind. The other end passes right across the main road.

[beaky]

It's worrisome, and not just from a safety standpoint. I haven't flown in or out of TEB since 1997, but the changes are obvious as one drives by... the whole north ramp area, which used to have a nice mix of jets and light props parked there, is all bizjets now. Haven't been down to the other end in a while; wouldn't surprise me to see a few encroaching back there as well. Kinda sad for piston-drivers like me. I believe TEB has the highest number of GA jet ops daily of any field in the USA, if not the world.
 Whatever; it was already pretty bad when I started my training in the mid-90s: wasted a lot of time (and money!) waiting behind those guys while they read back their flight plans, and almost every landing clearance included :"use best possible speed; Learjet/Citation/GS is three miles behind you"...good experience, though!!
 Fortunately, there's still good ol' N07... still no landing fee, and the neighbors will never let them extend that runway.
 

[Rocket_Bird]

Ya I was listening to that incident on the radio yesterday morning.  The crew refused de-ice?  Isnt that illegal?  I mean, its not the first time an aircraft crashed because it wasnt deiced properly...  ???  Was reading this article about an F-28 that crashed 15 years ago due to refusal of de-ice, because the pilot thought the APU was snagged (it was flagged by a mechanic), and they already had engines running... and they chose not to shut down the engines because of that for the de-ice process.  Would have thought by now they would have made it law or something  ???

[Hagar]

I would have thought de-icing was general practice these days. Anyone around in 1958 will remember what was called the Munich Air Disaster. The legendary Manchester United football (soccer) club lost most of its young star players, the champions of Europe known as the Busby Babes. Seven players lost their lives & the manager Matt Busby was very seriously injured. Many of those young players not killed never played football professionally again. This was due to ice on the wings during take-off. They didn't realise the significance in 1958. I don't see what excuse there is now. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witn ... 705187.stm

I found a map of the proposed developments at Shoreham. New runway marked in orange. The more I see of this the more ridiculous I think it is. The latest news is that the airport is up for sale after being run by the local councils since 1936. Things don't look too good for my favourite airport from where I'm sitting right now.

[C]

I found a map of the proposed developments at Shoreham. New runway marked in orange. The more I see of this the more ridiculous I think it is. The latest news is that the airport is up for sale after being run by the local councils since 1936. Things don't look too good for my favourite airport from where I'm sitting right now.

Saw the advert myself in Flight International last week. Looks like the council are wanting to make money from the site either through commercial revenue or selling to a developer. I think the problem over here is everybody wants a regional this, a regional that, without realising that places like the US and Australia has them because they are so bl**dy big! Why does Shoreham need a larger runway? Southampton's a hour or so away and so is Gatwick. If some one's that desparate they should get a helicopter. All I can say is local planners will be the death of GA in the UK, be it by filling the sky with controlled airspace or by building on all our airfields...

Charlie

[Hagar]

I'm not convinced there's a customer base for it. Many have tried over the years (including my old company) but regular services have never succeeded from Shoreham. I can't see that changing now. Even on today's crowded roads I can drive to Gatwick in about 40 minutes. Southampton might take a little longer. A taxi or bus would probably do it much quicker than me. I remember BEA Helicopters (later British Caledonian/Bristows) running a regular Gatwick - Heathrow shuttle some years ago. The service was withdrawn through lack of support. The shuttle-bus is far cheaper, more convenient & doesn't take much longer.

I must admit that these latest developments scare me. They're the biggest threat to the airport yet & I've seen a few in my time. Shoreham is the oldest commercial airport in the UK, the first commercial flight took place from here in 1911. There's been an airfield here ever since & many of the old pioneers were regular visitors before WWI. I have visions of it becoming another housing development or, heaven forbid, the new home of Brighton & Hove Albion football club. This was seriously suggested some years ago. I've been associated with this unique little piece of history for as long as I can remember. Once we lose it we will never get it back.

PS. http://www.sangbe.uku.co.uk/SANArchive/San01/July/Julyp4.htm

[beaky]

Rocketbird: no, it's not illegal to decline de-ice; the responsibility for deciding  the plane is airworthy rests with the PIC. It wouldn't be practical, even for a charter  or private flight, to have somebody with the FAA or the airport check for ice or frost on the wings of every bird before it departs. Sometimes. when there's a long delay, planes get de-iced then get iced up again before they're in position for takeoff!.

Hagar: Your mention of the Munich crash got me dusting off one of my favorite (but a little morbid) books:' Air Disasters' byStanley Stewart. According to that book, BEA Ambassador G-ALZU crashed not only due to ice (snow, really) on the wings, but due to slush on the runway. It was a classic case of two factors, each not a threat by itself, combining to create a disaster. If they had more lift, the slush might not have have messed things up; if there were no slush, the ice wouldn't have been much of a problem either. In fact, skimming thru this again, I see that the investigators at the time leaned towards the slush as the primary cause of the accident:  somewhere around reaching V1, the nosewheel re-enterd the slush, slowing her down enough so that she barely rotated by the end of the runway, and even then she wasn't ready to fly;the nosewheel came 'unstuck' but  the tail was dragging on the ground. They got the gear up, but she was probably just in ground effect (barely) at that point, and veered off towards a house, skimming the ground. The rest you know about- awful.
The captain, who survived, was sort of dragged across the coals, but in the end he was exonerated. The good news is that the effect of snow on takeoff performance was taken more seriously after that- airport personnel had measured the slush that day, but apparently it was within accepted limits for that time.

[beaky]

Looking at that diagram, Hagar, I can understand your concern. There's a lot of development at the SW end, there! A serious  problem on takeoff in a bigger, faster plane would leave the crew with a pretty poor option: the water. To the northeast, they'd at least be able to put it down in fairly open country, from the looks of it.
 At least, if the old runways are retained, there won't be too many problems sharing taxiways with the bigger planes, but it's definitely going to spoil the enjoyment of operating light singles there. Bummer.

[C]

The long and short of it is that there's absolutely no need for the bigger runway, its probably just some local planners getting excited and thinking they could make money out of the airport, and keeping the "plane-spotters" (in their view) who want the airfield to stay open happy. But they don't get the point (most of them probably don't understand the concept of GA)...