McLaren verdict.

[eno]

$100m fine ......... and no constructors points ....+ next years car to be independently scrutinised.


That's the verdict in the McLaren spy case.

They are expected to appeal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 991147.stm

[expat]

$100m fine ......... and no constructors points ....+ next years car to be independently scrutinised.


That's the verdict in the McLaren spy case.

They are expected to appeal.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 991147.stm

So last week there was insufficient evidence of wrong doing and this week a $100 million fine. Still, should please Craig


Matt

[expat]

Firstly I do not think McLaren have done anything wrong.

So, having now seen the news, there is so much that does not add up.
The team have lost all points but not the drivers, who whether they knew or not have competed in a potentially "illegal" car (illegal as to stolen technology). Why have the drivers escaped. Any victory will be pointless and hollow if they win in a car that has been designed with Ferrari technology or to counter Ferrari technology. Simple answer to that. A new fresh face in F1 that has taken all by storm, who has attracted sponsors, fans and viewers. There is no point in the drivers retaining their points if the team and the drivers are part of the team are docked theirs, but then we would not have an drivers championship this year.

$100 million fine. In the history of F1 the largest fine was about $5 million. How do they work out a nice round figure of $100 million? Why three years ago when Ferrari employees where caught selling Ferrari technology to Toyota and the FIA did nothing? This is a political move by FAI and Mosley to destroy a large thorn in the FIA's side, namely Ron Dennis, the man that almost organized a break away from F1- After all it is well know what Max Mosely thinks of McLaren and Ron Dennis. A sad day for F1.

Still I imagine that all the washing is not yet on the line in this story.
Another question, is this the end of McLaren F1. $100 million fine, no constructors money this year or next year, potential loss of sponsors, or if not that, a lot less money to spend on development. 1000 + employees to pay. That sort of money would send most companies down the pan.

Matt

[Craig.]

Am I happy, yes and no.
Ex-pat, firstly. the irony is, although Max doesn't like Ron, Bernie the mole does, and as you said, a certain young talent has brought him a ton of money this year, and that alone is why Bernie will have fought tooth and nail to ensure the drivers got off scot free (thats why i'm not happy)

I am happy that they've been punished, will it stand? who knows but if it does, I think it covers it pretty well, Ron Dennis is a nasty piece of work and his latest statements about now taking Renault down with them if they are punished, prooved to me he did something wrong. I honestly dont care if RD does his crying act the whole weekend, fact is he lied when he said only those two guys had the information, and the new info came out, he got caught with the lie.

What happens next though?
Mclaren may not be on the grid next year? I doubt that, I see RD retiring, Whitmarsh taking his place, and Mercedes buying the team outright. I dont see either Alonso or Hamilton now driving for the team next season, FA has been wanting out and now he has his perfect get out of jail free card. Hamilton needs to be in a team that can guarentee him a stable spot.

[expat]

Am I happy, yes and no.
Ex-pat, firstly. the irony is, although Max doesn't like Ron, Bernie the mole does, and as you said, a certain young talent has brought him a ton of money this year, and that alone is why Bernie will have fought tooth and nail to ensure the drivers got off scot free (thats why i'm not happy)

I am happy that they've been punished, will it stand? who knows but if it does, I think it covers it pretty well, Ron Dennis is a nasty piece of work and his latest statements about now taking Renault down with them if they are punished, prooved to me he did something wrong. I honestly dont care if RD does his crying act the whole weekend, fact is he lied when he said only those two guys had the information, and the new info came out, he got caught with the lie.

What happens next though?
Mclaren may not be on the grid next year? I doubt that, I see RD retiring, Whitmarsh taking his place, and Mercedes buying the team outright. I dont see either Alonso or Hamilton now driving for the team next season, FA has been wanting out and now he has his perfect get out of jail free card. Hamilton needs to be in a team that can guarentee him a stable spot.

I think you are right about most things, but if Mercedes stay with McLaren, I think Hamilton will stay too. He is not daft and regardless of the whole saga McLarens car is the better "tool" for him at this time and suits him. Kimi is an example of how hard it is to jump from one car to another today. Michael Schumacher after all never had that problem as he was part of the design of the car.

As for RD knowing, we have to agree to disagree. He may be a lot of things to a lot of people, but a cheat, no I don't think so, he has been at this too long. This comes down to two disgruntled employees who thought that they could make a little on the side because they where not happy with what they had. One was a McLaren employee, McLaren have to have some responsibility, but a $100 million responsibility very OTT. I think that this verdict was pay back time to some extent. At the end of the day, two greedy p#ssed of people have just crashed F1 2007. The constructor championship and the drivers championship are both now totally meaningless. It is a shame, because if Hamilton wins in his rookie year, it will be tainted regardless of what is said.
As for the Renault remarks, F1 is tighter than Portuguese police lips during an investigation. Did he really say that or did the press as usual hear what they wanted to hear whilst looking for a good angle to add.

Matt

[Craig.]

Hi mate,
It was confirmed yesterday by the FIA that Mclaren have approached them about renault and the same thing as the ferrari case. They were told that it would be welcomed in a seperate hearing, any info Mclaren have regarding the situation. The taking them down comment came from a website quoting ron.

I actually didn't say Ron cheated. I said he lied.
I dont for one second think that anything major was used by anyone regarding the documents. My biggest problem with the situation is RD claiming that it was only Coughlan and Stepny who knew. He testified to this at the first hearing. Since then, new evidence reportedly from Alonso/ De-la rossa emails suggests a lot more people knew about this than first reported. I have no doubt RD was one of them, and as such he lied to the head honchos and now has been proven so. This also encompasses the drivers, and how they got away with the "Immunity clause" I have no idea (I am guessing this is where Bernie mole stepped in) And as such they also had access to the information, which the team claimed they didn't have at the first hearing. So my way of understanding this is, the drivers claim to respect the sport and its integrity, but instead of immediatly coming forward and reporting this, they try to hide it, and as such make a mockery of it.

[expat]

Hi mate,
It was confirmed yesterday by the FIA that Mclaren have approached them about renault and the same thing as the ferrari case. They were told that it would be welcomed in a seperate hearing, any info Mclaren have regarding the situation. The taking them down comment came from a website quoting ron.

I actually didn't say Ron cheated. I said he lied.
I dont for one second think that anything major was used by anyone regarding the documents. My biggest problem with the situation is RD claiming that it was only Coughlan and Stepny who knew. He testified to this at the first hearing. Since then, new evidence reportedly from Alonso/ De-la rossa emails suggests a lot more people knew about this than first reported. I have no doubt RD was one of them, and as such helied to the head honchos and now has been proven so. This also encompasses the drivers, and how they got away with the "Immunity clause" Ihave no idea (I am guessing this is where Bernie mole stepped in) And as such they also had access to the information, which the team claimed they didn't have at the first hearing. So my way of understanding this is, the drivers claim to respect the sport and its integrity, but instead of immediatly coming forward and reporting this, they try to hide it, and as such make a mockery of it.

I stand corrected on the Renault part, I have since my last post read a bit more on the various websites. As for the drivers, I would love to have been a fly on Bernie's lapel. At the end of the day, he (I say loosely) owns F1 and has a vested interest that his product remains bright and shiny. I be there where some very interesting conversations taking place.
Also I know you said "lied" and I said "cheated", but with a sport like F1 and what it involves, the line becomes very blurred as we have seem many times over the last few years.
McLaren are fools to themselves. RD had been in this long enough to know the penalty, I think that they have been caught short by the punishment that they got. If RD had fired the guy who had the doc's right away and called JT and said come and pick your folder up, nothing would have happened. Much the same way that Toyota delt with the same thing.


As for this weekend. What do you think, will they be feeling the pressure or be pumped up?

Matt

[Craig.]

I agree on the calling JT as soon as possible and I think this is another reason for the severe penalty.
This weekend, it could be a tale of two teams. The mechanics and the drivers. The drivers I'm sure will be pumped up and try to stamp their authority on the championship and put this behind them.
The mechanics on the other hand, they do this for the constructors trophy. I know a lot of the general public dont care about it or understand it, but to the guys in the garage it means more than the drivers title. It means they can say we are the best we built the car that won. And now getting kicked out, I honestly can see a lot of the guys being very downbeat and rather upset about it. Will it effect performance? Maybe, but something tells me FA and LH need to be very nice to these guys if they want the wheels being put on quickly.

[MWISimmer]

Regardless of who wins the championship they will be associated with the car they won in.
I can remember EVERY car EVERY champion won in, purely by association. Senna/Prost McLaren, Mansell Williams, Schumi Bennetton/Ferrari etc.
The only penalty to McLaren is financial and over time they'll recoup that tenfold if FA or LH wins this year, which is likely.

[Craig.]

So in your opinion, apart from a slightly tarnished repuatation they wont suffer any real reprocussions?

P.s. dont forget Prost also won the title with Williams.

[MWISimmer]

What I'm saying is that history is history.. the whole car/driver package is what I remember not just the driver. When somebody mentions Damon Hill I don't visualise a greying George Harrison lookalike, I visualise his Rothmans Williams, likewise Senna and the Marlboro McLaren. Shallow maybe, but that's how I see it.
Of course McLaren will be tainted, even if they don't win the drivers championship.. but if they do whoever wins it will be remembered in that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes because that's what they won in. Simple.

[Craig.]

Fair point. I wasn't being combatitive honest, just trying to understand your point clearly.

[expat]

When somebody mentions Damon Hill I don't visualise a greying George Harrison lookalike, I visualise his Rothmans Williams, likewise Senna and the Marlboro McLaren.

Very good point. Also next year, when the Constructors Championship is up and running and if McLaren are in what would be first position, they will be listed as such on every website and newspaper as probably two listings. What is the official word and a corrected listing for what would/should have been. TV of course is Bernie's department. We will have to see just how far the presenters are able to go.

Matt

[Craig.]

well if they are docked their points and not overturned at appeal, newspaper listings or not, the Mclaren team will be getting to know spykers team quite well down the bottom of the pitlane. (or whatever they will be called next year) If one of their drivers wins the title and leaves, they will also have the fun of carrying numbers in the 20's on the car. That'll be rather humiliating for the team.

[C]

Ferrari won't be happy until they are the world championship. They'd be happy racing against 20 Spykers...