Why Payware?

[paulb]

Hi

This is an interesting debate, so I thought that I would add to it........

IMHO   .....................................

Freeware is the lifeblood of FS. Its allows 'oldies' (perhaps on a fixed income) to continue to enjoy new FS experiences. At the same time it allows youngsters (with not much pocket money) to enter the FS community and help ensure that it continues to thrive.
And I am not forgeting those in between  ;)

Payware is a natural consequence in a free society.

We all have a choice to use or not use freeware/payware  ;D

So what are the issues?

Three spring to mind......................

Firstly, the lack of respect that a small minority of users show towards freeware developers. As a freeware developer myself, I can assure you that it is not funny to receive a rude email about your work ( and I dont mean genuine constructive criticism which is always welcome). Also, after spending many weeks on a project, to find that some-one copies it, makes a few minor changes, and then claims credit for your work! Fortunately, all decent FS sites do respect your copyright, but it still causes a hassle that is not fun.

Secondly, the improving quality of freeware has created a growing overlap with payware ie the best freeware is now consistently better than the worst payware. This might suggest that too many are now trying to make a quick buck?

Thirdly, some payware is becoming too highly priced. Whilst I have purchased a number of payware aircraft, I find that anything over around $20 is very hard to justify.

What do you think?

Cheers Paul  8)

[Fozzer]

I must admit, I have never purchased a "Payware" aeroplane.
I personally find that if the aircraft I am flying has a reasonable control panel containing all the controls, instruments and radios, etc, that I need, then the rest of the construction is of lesser interest.
After all, I am sitting in the cockpit all of the time looking at the instrument panel in front of me, tuning the radios, watching out for other aircraft and admiring the scenery around me, mostly at low level, most of the time... ...!
...and most all of this is covered by the "Freeware" designers...bless 'em... ...!
It is only the highly complex utility add-ons, (mentioned previously), that I am readily prepared to purchase when necessary.

Paul.

[Katahu]

Felix:

This is plain BULL ...  

What is wrong in wanting SOME remuneration for one's efforts?

I have no problem with someone doing a payware project, nor with someone keeping their projects freeware.  Sometimes it's just as simple as a company saying "Hey, if you do this plane for us, we'll pay you for it!"

Payware flightsim products exist because people will buy it, pure and simple.  IT's laudable that you keep your Mercedes and Porsche projects as freeware, but if you had decided to go the payware route, so be it!

If you're a freeware freak, great, but that doesn't mean that someone else who does payware (and freeware) is any less dedicated to putting out a quality product.

I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Still, I stick with what I said before.

I have seen many payware addons that were listed at unreasonable prices for their kind. On the other hand, I have seen payware addons at fair prices.

Payware mainly exists because there are people on a tight budget with huge dept [repaying loans, morgage, taxes, medical bills, etc.]. Not only that, There are a lot of websites [that provides the addon] that require money in order to be maintained. Don't forget the cost of distribution as well and support.

Yes, you are right. Most people do deserve money for their work.

For me, I don't expect much in return for as long as I am recognized in a positive way for my work.

If I EVER did a payware addon, I STILL wouldn't charge no more than $2. Reason: Numbers.

If I made an addon that costs $2 and sold each copy to 100,000 people nationwide or 1,000,000 people worldwide....well....do the math from there.

PS: I was never attempting to affend anyone.

[Felix/FFDS]

Felix:

I didn't mean to offend anyone.

No offense taken.

I have seen many payware addons that were listed at unreasonable prices for their kind. On the other hand, I have seen payware addons at fair prices.

Agreed

Payware mainly exists because there are people on a tight budget with huge dept [repaying loans, morgage, taxes, medical bills, etc.]. Not only that, There are a lot of websites [that provides the addon] that require money in order to be maintained. Don't forget the cost of distribution as well and support.

If I EVER did a payware addon, I STILL wouldn't charge no more than $2. Reason: Numbers.

If I made an addon that costs $2 and sold each copy to 100,000 people nationwide or 1,000,000 people worldwide....well....do the math from there.

PS: I was never attempting to affend anyone.

The reasoning here needs reviewing.  There are few, if any, flightsim addons that sell into the tens of thousands, let alone hundreds of thousands.  Where you may get into the "thousands" donwload purchase is with either an extremely popular airplane/collection, or if your distribution is through the - extremely competitive - retail outlet.

The payware vs freeware argument is actually a very personal decision, since no one is forced to go exclusively either route.  Note that for the payware author, an ectremely successful product also has tax consequences ..  but it's always nice to take a cheque to the bank to upgrade to that next and best ever video card, or 15MHz double processor

[Katahu]

I should back off away from these Payware forums since I easily get started on such things. Besides, a forum like this can sometimes start a minor flare up [which just happened].

but it's always nice to take a cheque to the bank to upgrade to that next and best ever video card, or 15MHz double processor

Well, I rather make my money from jobs and investments. I understand that it's easy-money when it comes to payware addons. Now that you mentioned the Tax-Consiquense, going Payware is my LAST resort.

It's ok for those who choose to go payware. This is America, Capitalism thrives here.

You're right, it's nice to have that new Geforce 4 FX series or an Athlon 64Bit processor with that little check.

[Prowler1111]

Thirdly, some payware is becoming too highly priced. Whilst I have purchased a number of payware aircraft, I find that anything over around $20 is very hard to justify

ditto on that one...i think they should not cost more than the simulator itself...UNLESS they really give you some GREAT enhancement

Bottom line...Fligth simming is a great Hobby.....

have a GREAT 2004 in the simulated skies people

best regards
Prowler

[Katahu]

Their are a certain number of addons that I really like to pay for.

There is this addon that enhances the default Miami Int'l Airport [KMIA] with great details. It's called Fly-Miami. It updates the airport with all the things that are truely happening in the real-world version of KMIA.

In reality, KMIA has been under construction for about 30 years and they are still working on it. There are even construction cranes that are errecting some new buildings.

I believe [IMHO] that scenery deserve more credit than the aircraft. It's easy to create Payware aircraft [if you read the tuts and tips]. However, it's never easy to create Payware scenery. Scenery is the hardest addon to make.

You have to find accurate and detailed satellite images, you have to figure out how high a mountain is [if any], you have to figure out the precise locations, and you have to make it as accurate as possible. And that is a real test of your patience. Especially if it's Payware.

I will accept any payware sceneries that are GREAT [as in near-perfect]and involves Miami or it's major airports, or involves its major beaches, or the Port of Miami.

I love Miami.

The Fly-Miami scenery costs at around $10-15 USD. So far, I have to demo version.

There is even Fly-Tampa [judge by its name].

[awash2002]

I voted #1 also for three reasons

www.flight1.com
www.realairsimulations.com
www.lagoonline.com
they make great add ons for FS2004 flight1 for the FS2004 meridian 310 152 421 Golden Eagle 177RG Cardinal FS2002 version and they now have a update for the FS2002 cardinal I baught them at Oshkosh 2003 and have used nothing else and for FS2002 eaglesoft design group for there Beech jet 400A and there Raythion premeir1

[Felix/FFDS]

I believe [IMHO] that scenery deserve more credit than the aircraft. It's easy to create Payware aircraft [if you read the tuts and tips]. However, it's never easy to create Payware scenery. Scenery is the hardest addon to make.

You have to find accurate and detailed satellite images, you have to figure out how high a mountain is [if any], you have to figure out the precise locations, and you have to make it as accurate as possible. And that is a real test of your patience. Especially if it's Payware.

A lot of the scenery data is available already in digitized format.  Satellite imagery is useful for accurate texturing and placement of landmark buildings, etc.

In this I agree that *accurate* scenery is more than taking a good photo image and slapping it on a box object.

[Smoke2much]

This is an interesting debate that I have missed because I rarely visit this board.

For what it's worth I'll give my view.

I am amazed by the number of freeware addons that are available to the flight sim community.  There seem to be hundreds of designers out there willing to spend significant amounts of their time buiding aircraft, drawing textures and writing airfiles for our enjoyment who ask for nothing in return.  I salute them and long may it last.

What annoys me is the perceived "right" that seems to have crept in that we should have addons to our hobby for free.  This is ridiculous, what do these people owe us that they should spend 100 hours of their time and receive no renumeration whatsoever?  They get little feedback and there are many of us that can only ever think of negative comments to make about their hard work.

I have not bought an addon for FS since I purchased the Vietnam CD for CFS1,2 and FS2k/2.  It was bad and I felt slightly cheated.  I feel that the quality of the addon did not justify the cost of the product.  This is personal, there are others who post on here that have made positive statements about it.

As consumers we have a right to demand high quality when we part with cash.  I feel that a payware aircraft should be at least as good quality as the default aircraft available in the basic simulator.  We do not have the right to demand that our colleagues in this mad hobby provide their services free of charge.

I spent several hours coming to grips with GMax a few weeks ago and I discovered how difficult it really is.  If I had the talent to produce high quality aircraft I would attempt to get paid for it.  In the same way that if I could write novels I would get paid and when I work I get paid.  Just because I love my job doesn't mean I'm willing to do it for nothing.  In fact because my job is only done by those who are drawn to it because of what we do we get paid less than we should.

Give the payware designers a break and don't expect a free ride

[Katahu]

Payware addons are made by skilled developers who are experts in their own field. If you are extremely good at making detailed aircraft with accurate flight dynamics, then you do deserve a reward for your hard work.

Remember, it takes skill and practice [and lots of it] to create a near-perfect payware addon.

It took me 3 years to master Gmax and it's special tools that many people rarely use or don't even know. And I'm still learning.

What annoys me is the perceived "right" that seems to have crept in that we should have addons to our hobby for free.  This is ridiculous, what do these people owe us that they should spend 100 hours of their time and receive no renumeration whatsoever?

The so-called "right" that is printed in all the "read-me" files of every addon is there for a reason. Credibility.

There are many people still out there that are more than willing to take your addons, modify it and redistribute without permission, and claim that the new addon is fully theirs while the original authers are left in the dark without any recognition or any form of credit.

If you created an addon that took you 2 years to create [like my Mercedes] and finish and found out that someone stole your addon and claimed it as theirs, how would you feel? Pissed off, right?

This really happened before. There was a report [long ago] that many of the freeware addons [here in simviation] were stolen and added into a commercial CD without any permission from the authers. Bonzonie's B-52 was among the victims.

Anyways. Like one of the people here in simviation always says, 'you pays your money and you take your chance'.

[Hagar]

I just spotted this & will add my two penn'orth.

When I started in the hobby, only a few years ago, most addons were Freeware. I became interested in doing something similar myself & got generous help & advice from whoever I asked. In an attempt to give something back to the hobby I became involved in this site & willingly helped anyone who asked for it. I still do & much of my spare time is spent writing tutes & doing detailed walkthroughs by e-mail.

A few people I helped in this way abused my generosity (& that of others) by going off on their own & charging for the things they created with my help. Not only do I feel let down but I also have to wonder how they can do this without using the many excellent Freeware utilities that I taught them to use. If they don't get permission to do so or fail to purchase a commercial licence for commercial programs like FSDS or Paint Shop Pro they are in fact breaking the law. If anyone thinks they can make a quick buck by charging for their work maybe they should think again.

This is my hobby. I expect no reward from a hobby other than the pleasure it gives me & the occasional thanks from people I help. I will therefore remain committed to Freeware for as long as I'm interested in this hobby. That is a promise.

PS. I have no objection to Payware per se. There are a few reputable companies, mostly long established, that give good value for money. It would have to be the very best quality for me even to consider it. That would take some doing with the general quality of Freeware these days. Apart from the odd utility or design application I would never purchase an FS addon myself.

[Smoke2much]

The so-called "right" that is printed in all the "read-me" files of every addon is there for a reason. Credibility.

There are many people still out there that are more than willing to take your addons, modify it and redistribute without permission, and claim that the new addon is fully theirs while the original authers are left in the dark without any recognition or any form of credit.

I think you have misunderstood me Katahu.  I mean that the consumers appear to be demanding the "right" to have addons for free and openly stating that the developers are naughty to demand money.

Will

[Katahu]

Oh. My bad.

[Prowler1111]

A few people I helped in this way abused my generosity (& that of others) by going off on their own & charging for the things they created with my help. Not only do I feel let down but I also have to wonder how they can do this without using the many excellent Freeware utilities that I taught them to use. If they don't get permission to do so or fail to purchase a commercial licence for commercial programs like FSDS or Paint Shop Pro they are in fact breaking the law. If anyone thinks they can make a quick buck by charging for their work maybe they should think again.

Wait..i really mean no offense..please..but this makes me think...what were you looking for?..some kind of recognition..or some wage?..i have to ask, but then again..i REALLY mean no offense.
Sometimes when you don