Why is CFS and FS a different product

[andrew_morley]

Hi,

I haven't been on here for a very very long time and am surprised my account is still active.

Anyway I just wondered if anyone could tell me why it is that Microsoft don't try bringing together some of the elements from the CFS series into the Flight sim products. I know from doing some exploring that some of the structure of the games are similar however several things are missing which could prove useful when flying in FS. For example damage to aircraft.

I know that there are several add-ons for FS2002 and I assume FS2004 which give you the ability to drop weapons and similar things, however this is still only a effect and has no other value. What if Microsoft started adding the possibility for real weapon, aircraft damage and other features from CFS, wouldn't this make the Flight sim series even more 'as real as it gets'?

I know there are the people who might say that it would encourage people to do things which they might try and replicate in the real world (i.e. 9/11 which I still don't believe they did),  but imagine how good it would be especially with all the other brilliant features found in the products already.

I am not saying that CFS doesn't have a place, but no matter how much I play it there never seems to be that feeling that you are playing a simulation. More of an arcade game, but if your actions had an effect on the sim world then you might actually have somthing.

Sorry about the length, but I had to make up for lost time!

Andy

[Hagar]

Hi Andy. CFS was originally intended to be the combat version of FS which was always regarded as a "serious" civil flight simulator. I don't think your suggestion would go down too well with the FS diehards. In fact, some of them object strongly to any form of military aircraft at all.

I agree that there are some CFS features that would improve FS. One example that comes to mind is the CFS2 Ships with moving landable carriers. I never understood why these weren't featured in FS2002/4.

[Fozzer]

Hi Andy...!
I have FS '98, FS 2000, FS 2002 and FS 2004, and CFS 2.
CFS 2 has always been an "Arcade" game for me. Whereas the FS series of programs have always been aimed at private and commercial aircraft flights, where "damage" , and the carrying of "offensive weapons", ie: guns, bombs, etc, has to be avoided all all costs.... ...!

The FS series and CFS series are aimed at totally different types of flying... thank goodness......!
...(and amusement).... ...!

Cheers...
Paul
(England).

[Hagar]

Andy. Take no notice of Fozzer. He's one of the diehards I mentioned. See what you're up against?

Hi Foz.
Hagar - diehard CFS fan.
You don't know what you're missing. OK, don't tell me -you don't want to know.

[Fozzer]

Andy. Take no notice of Fozzer. He's one of the diehards I mentioned. See what you're up against? ::)

Hi Foz.
Hagar - diehard CFS fan.
You don't know what you're missing. OK, don't tell me -you don't want to know.

Hi Hagar... ...!
Being the normal, quiet, "laid back", sort of chap that I am, the only time I get the urge to use "offensive weapons", ie: CFS 2,  is dealing with next-doors cat part way through devouring the sparrows feeding on my lawn.... ...!
Apart from that, chuffin' around in my ltttle Piper Cub and Cessna 152 will do me fine... ...!
...thank-you very much... ...!

LOL...LOL...LOL...!

Cheers Doug... ...!
Paul.
(Hereford).

P.S. I can't cope with all this shooting at pixels "stuff" on CFS 2.... ...!
(I always miss, and die, anyway...).... ...!
Life is too short... ...!

LOL...LOL...LOL...!

[ozzy72]

So what you're telling us Paul is that if someone made a Kitten Kong (copyright The Goodies) attatchment for CFS2 you'd be playing that all the time?

Mark

[Hagar]

After chuffin' around in my little vintage planes in FS2002 it still makes me jump when I apply the brakes & the guns go off instead. What the........?
Who's stupid idea was it to assign the trigger to the brakes anyway?

Somehow it's not quite the same. LOL

[ozzy72]

Oh I don't know Hagar, after some twit AI has cut you up on your approach I often get the urge to put a few dozen rounds of .50 into him as I follow him around the taxi-ways.
A quick Q. though, what are brakes, my wife keeps talking about these things in the car......?

Ozzy

[Fozzer]

After chuffin' around in my little vintage planes in FS2002 it still makes me jump when I apply the brakes & the guns go off instead. What the........?
Who's stupid idea was it to assign the trigger to the brakes anyway?

Somehow it's not quite the same. LOL

Dear Oh flippin' dear....
That has reduced me to un-controlable laughter....LOL...LOL...LOL...!
I know exactly what you mean... ...!
The very thought of peppering the Boeing 747 passenger jet, landing just in front of me, with a volley of .303's is quite frightening as I taxi to the take-off point in my '152, and apply the brakes...in FS 2002... ...!
LOL...LOL...LOL...!

Cheers all...!
Paul.
(England).

[RollerBall]

Yeah I think they are aimed at two entirely different markets. My son put a copy of CFS3 on my PC when he was last over (shhhhh....don't tell Mr G...) but it left me totally cold. Had a few goes at intercepting Heinkels or something (you know, the training) but ran out of ammo within about 20 seconds and then didn't know what to do with myself. After doing that a few times was so bored with it I wiped it off.

I gather you start missions and things (had something similar in FS22 Total Air War by DID) that are then ongoing but it's a bit like watching soaps on TV to me. Can't be bothered committing my time in that way. For the same reason I have the distinction of getting to the last chamber in Half Life, trying to do it a few times and then getting totally bored with it - I've never gone back to finish it to this day!

To me CFS is similar - it's just an arcade type game where you 'keep score'. Like Fozzer, I'm not interested at all in 'damage', dropping bombs, shooting anyone or anything up. Hate to say it, but from where I sit, at my incredibly advanced(!) age, these seem somewhat juvenile activities. On the other hand, I keep finding new dimensions in my FS that have kept me engrossed for months now and I'm sure will continue to do so for a long time to come.

So I'm glad FS and CFS are separate. If they were combined we'd pay a whole lot more for features the die-hard FS fans like me would never be interested in using. As it is for you CFS guys, tough! You've got to buy both products, which I guess is probably the whole point of the posting in the first place

[ysteinbuch]

Who needs dogfights and blazing guns? I am much more excited about trans-Atlantic hauls in a wide body.  ;)

[andrew_morley]

I see what people mean about being up against the die hard flight simmers!

However I don't mean that just because you add guns to the sim you should start treating it like a combat flight sim. I just meant that it should be a feature of the game just like all the other things which are included. It could even be done in such a way as it would be possible for other people to configure the aircraft so that the adding of weapons and other things is possible.

Also when I say features from the CFS series I don't just mean the weapons. How about being able to add the basic communication between aircraft which you see when flying with your so called wingmen? If Microsoft updated that AI a bit you could end up doing all sorts of formation flying! Think of the improvements to packages like the Red Arrows!?

Flight sim has so many more add-ons and possibilities compared to the CFS stuff and if people are happy to use the enhanced freeware which improves your ability to track other aircraft and such things why not include as many possibilities as you can?

Maybe it could be included as a seperate package like the other add-ons which you can currently buy?

Andy

[KnightStryker]

While I do understand where andrew_morley is coming from, I would like to point out the one MAJOR reason I am glad that the two are not combined.
I almost exclusively fly online now and find it very frustrating that I have to deal with immature brats (not just kids but some adults as well) that just have to go around and run into everyone they can. I fly with full realism. Disableing the crash effects for this reason just drives me nuts. Now someone is going to be able to shot at me, I think not! For this reason alone I have to say that makeing the two products into one is the WORST idea I have heard in a long time.
Nothing personal Andy its just my 2 cents.

Kevin

[RollerBall]

I see what people mean about being up against the die hard flight simmers!

Not sure I like being clarified as a 'die hard flight simmer'

It has a kind of 'New Labour' feel to it - the way you try to imply that people who don't have the same point of view as you are somehow extreme! (Poeple in the UK will know what I mean)

It also seems to imply that such people have a closed mind to 'new' thinking. Far from it, I think that the 'antis' have displayed a clarity of thinking and expression which can often be quite rare on these forums

Don't see much by way of support of the idea - but fortunately it AIN'T gonna happen anyway

[Hagar]

Yeah I think they are aimed at two entirely different markets. My son put a copy of CFS3 on my PC when he was last over (shhhhh....don't tell Mr G...) but it left me totally cold. Had a few goes at intercepting Heinkels or something (you know, the training) but ran out of ammo within about 20 seconds and then didn't know what to do with myself. After doing that a few times was so bored with it I wiped it off.

I gather you start missions and things (had something similar in FS22 Total Air War by DID) that are then ongoing but it's a bit like watching soaps on TV to me. Can't be bothered committing my time in that way. For the same reason I have the distinction of getting to the last chamber in Half Life, trying to do it a few times and then getting totally bored with it - I've never gone back to finish it to this day!

LOL I'm certainly no youngster & have the exact opposite opinion. You picked the wrong version of CFS to try. There is a lot more to it than flying missions & getting shot down. CFS3 is a completely new concept that bears as much relationship to the traditional FS/CFS series that I love as the 100s of other arcade-style games filling the shelves in my local software store. There is no place for it on my machine.

I can think of nothing more boring & mind-numbing than flying acoss the Atlantic (in real time) on autopilot. Some people even ask if it's possible to land automatically too.
Please note I'm not accusing RollerBall or Fozzer of doing this but from what I read here this is what I gather so many people use FS for. We all get our kicks in different ways & there's nothing wrong with that. Any of the M$ sims can be modified into what you want it to be - which is what makes the FS series so fascinating for me.

There was always a snobbish element in the FS community that considered CFS just a stupid game & the people who liked it mindless idiots. I think that's their loss - not mine. I do enjoy blowing things up occasionally (who doesn't?) but mainly concern myself with the development side of things. With the right attitude, each new sim - whether FS or CFS - would have continued the ongoing development & we would all be working towards the same end instead of from opposite directions. CFS1 was my fiirst M$ sim. When I eventually tried FS98 (released before CFS1) I could see the vast improvement that had been made in a few months & the potential for the next civil version.

Unfortunately M$ missed the opportunity & went off on a tangent - as usual. We ended up with FS2000 which seemed a backward step to me. I always thought that the M$ developers missed a lot by not using elements of CFS in FS & vice versa. For example, the AI Traffic that made FS2002 so fascinating for me is basically the same as the AI aircraft used in CFS1 back in 1998 (& every CFS since)