More Frame Rates..... a puzzling problem

[Smoke2much]

John,

I have been reading this thread with some interest as I have problems with frame rates etc. with fs2k2.  Is it possible that you have a bad copy of the sim itself?  If perhaps this is the case it may be causing you to crash out.  It would seem to me that it is more likely to be an M$ problem as you state that the crashing only happens with this program and none other.

I hope you sort it soon.

Will.

PS maybe you could wait a few weeks until 2004 comes out and see if you have probs with that, but this is a BAD solutioin to the problem.

[JBaymore]

Will,

Thanks for the suggestions.

It is POSSIBLE that the copy I have of MSFS2002 is "bad"........... but it is pretty hard to find that out without buying another copy of the program for exact comparison.  The only crashes I get from the SIm have been with the new video cards.....the 64 meg card works FINE....except for the slow frame rate of 9-10 ish in dense large airports with lots of AI traffic and scenery and such.

You have another solution to figuring out if the basic copy of FS is somehow "bad"?


As to "Century of Flight"......... yeah I'll probably end up buying it  :D.  But you are right that THAT is NOT the way to have to go to solve such a problem.  And that is ASSUMING that the NVidia / Direct X 9 driver issue is SOLVED for that version.  It might not be.

No matter how you slice it......... the NVidia drivers and Direct X 9 do not work right together.  The Dxdiag program proves that.  It reports the wrong memory size for the video card........... 16 meg or 32 meg when there is 256 Meg functioning.  The Asylum rep said that straight out.  THAT has nothing to do with FS2002.  BUT it appears that when you try to run FS 2002 with that combination..... it just won't tolerate whatever the discrepancy between the two is.

Plus it appears that the the framerate issue with 2002 is just that...... an issue in the Sim in general. If you want to run the sim as the designers INTENDED the experience to be....... ALL sliders and options set on full.......... then you are REALLY pushing the hardware.  THAT is how I want to run the sim.....plus with added AI, increased scenery, and more complex modeled aircraft.

On my sim when I reinstalled it "clean" with no add-ons or extra AI aircraft AND with the sliders pulled back a bit to reduce "realism"........ it gets me FAR better frame rates at airports.  My standardized KBOS test location goes up to about 22-25 FPS in the C 172 test plane........BUT....... the realism goes out the window fast due to the decreased settings.

The "pool" about frame rate that is up on another thread here indicates that people in general are not getting really high frame rates to start with.  If you add in scenery details, AI aircraft, and fly a more complex plane than the defaults..... my guess is that in the vicinity of major airports the frame rate will go way down.  

And where do you WANT good frame rates?  Why when you are taking off and landing for really smooth realistic control of the aircraft, of course.  If you are trying to put a fighter on the deck of a carrier........ jerky simulation is NOT good  ;).

So my framerate search is to get the framerate up for that purpose.  I don't care about getting 60 FPS out in the air in the boonies of East Forgetaboutit.

The real BUG here is that I have a pretty fast new machine and this is still an issue  ;).

SO.... still working on it.

best,

.....................john

[Smoke2much]

John,

You could try installing your copy on a machine similar to yours, I'm not sure if this would be possible and as you say it ran with no problems with a Geforce 2.

I have the following:

P IV 1.7Ghz
512 Mb Ram
Geforce 2 mx400 64Mb Ram
Direct X 9.0a

and with the settings maxd out in a C-172 at KBOS at 17.57 hrs (1024x768x32) (right now, i've just tried it) I'm getting between 9.0 and 10.8 FPS.  This in my opinion is unflyable.  With my setting pushed back a bit, which I more than understand you don't want to do I get a more acceptable 15-40FPS.  The most important for MY system seems to be dynamic scenery which I can live without.

I have tweaked my card slightly using riva tuner and have achieved much better results following a suggestion about setting my LOD at -1.0 in open GL and Direct X.  I haven't a clue what this means however, please forgive my ignorance.

None of this helps you with your crash problem and direct x.  I got my direct X via windows XP (Home edit.) update, I also got my drivers from there as well.  I would imagine that these are not the best available but they are from Windows and in my (admittedly naive) opinion likely to work best with other windows products (ie XP and fs200s and dx9.0).

Would it be possible to re-install direct X and your drivers in this way?

As an aside I have found that if I load up fs2k2 and then Alt-Tab back to desk top and then Alt-Tab back to fs2ks I get an improvement of 2-10 FPS.  I have no idea why but it happens.

I hope my drivel helps somewhat.

Will

[JBaymore]

Will,

"I have the following:

P IV 1.7Ghz
512 Mb Ram
Geforce 2 mx400 64Mb Ram
Direct X 9.0a

and with the settings maxd out in a C-172 at KBOS at 17.57 hrs (1024x768x32) (right now, i've just tried it) I'm getting between 9.0 and 10.8 FPS.  This in my opinion is unflyable."

Your system is sort of similar to mine except my  motherboard is a Pentium 4 at 2.4Gig.  And we get pretty similar frame rates.  And yes....... flying at that rate IS pretty marginal.  That is why I am on the "quest"  :P.


"I have tweaked my card slightly using riva tuner and have achieved much better results following a suggestion about setting my LOD at -1.0 in open GL and Direct X."  

What is Riva Tuner and where did you get it?


"None of this helps you with your crash problem and direct x.  I got my direct X via windows XP (Home edit.) update, I also got my drivers from there as well.  I would imagine that these are not the best available but they are from Windows and in my (admittedly naive) opinion likely to work best with other windows products (ie XP and fs200s and dx9.0)."

I have used Direct X versions from about 4 different places....that are all Direct X 9.0a.  None work with the 256 Meg 5600FX cards.  I am using the exact same Direct X version and NVidia Detonator drivers on the current GeForce 2 card (they use the exact same driver)  and with that card all is just fine  ???.


"Would it be possible to re-install direct X and your drivers in this way? "

Been there, done that, and have a closet full of T-shirts from the experience.  No luck. At least with Direct X.  I have not downloaded the NVidea drivers from the MICROSOFT site however.  Might have to try THAT approach.  I have tried the ones on the installation disks and ther ones direct off Asylum and PNY's sites as well as the ones from NVidia's own site.


"As an aside I have found that if I load up fs2k2 and then Alt-Tab back to desk top and then Alt-Tab back to fs2ks I get an improvement of 2-10 FPS.  I have no idea why but it happens."

That is bizare. Does the increased frame rate stay that way or does it drift back?  If it drifts back it may be that you have FS setup to cache some scenery and it is reading faster from the cache when you first re-start it.
I'll have to try that and see what I get.

No time today to get back to Comp USA and exchange the video card.  Have to wait a day or two to continue the experiments.

best,

...................john

[RIC_BARKER]

JBaymore,

I'm following this with interest, I hope you get your probelm sorted soon, it sounds like you're having one hell of a time!

On another note, the best place for your nVidia drivers is here, there is a whole back catalouge of drivers : http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=winxp-2k_archive

Also, make sure when you download the drivers, you do not use a download manager utility, as this can corrupt the drivers, which *might* lead to the probels you are experiencing.

Riva Tuner can be found here : http://www.guru3d.com/rivatuner/

Hope that goes some way to helping you.

Ric B.

[Smoke2much]

John,

Riva Tuner is available from Guru3d.com.  They have loads of drivers and tweaking things that I understand not at all.

The frame frate does drift back a little after a while but not back to where it was.  The thing appears to be in percentages.  At 800x600 I gain about 10FPS and lose 3 after a while (net gain 7) and at 1024x768 I gain 3-5 and lose 1-2.  It's difficult to tell as the increase is negligable.

As an experiment I turned my graphics settings down to the absolute minimums, EVERYTHING at zero.  I am only getting abot 45FPS when I used to get 90-120.  I'm not sure what is going on any more.......

Best of luck with your new new card.

Will

[JBaymore]

Will, Ric, et al,

I just downloaded the Nvidia driver that is located on the Microsoft Windows Update website.  I had been trying to use the drivers for the cards either from the installation disks or from the manufacturer's websites or from the Nvidia website.  None of those "passed" the M$ seal of approval test in dxdiag.....although other than the digital signiture all the other factors in the dxdiag test passed on them with flying colors.

Base on Will's one comment.......... thought I'd try this.

Now when I run Dxdiag....... the "not signed by Microsoft" warning message goes away....... so this is an "officially approved" driver for the cards.

I am currently running the 64 Meg GeForce 2..... which has been working fine all along..... and it still appears to be fine with the new M$ driver installed.

Shortly I will uninstall that 64 Meg card and put in the PNY GeForce FX 5600 256 Meg card and see if the driver direct from Microsoft fixes the massive crashing problems.

I'll let you all know.

best,

...................john

[JBaymore]

Well.........

Took out the GeForce 2 64 Meg card and put in the GeForce FX 5600 256 Meg card.  Installed the disk drivers for the new card....... tested it....... and it crashed as soon as the sim reached the cockpit view........as expected.

THEN rebooted and "rolled back" the driver the the previous version...... the one downloaded from the Microsoft update site.

Tried the exact same test..... and got the exact same results!!!!!!!!!  So the newest driver for the card driect from Microsoft instead of NVidia does not work either.  The version of the driver from M$ shows as later than the one from Nvidia's site....... ver 4.3.5.1 instead of 4.3.4.5.

I'm bummed ..... ........ I was really hoping this would solve it.

So...... still screwing around with this problem  ??? .

best,

........................john

[Attack_Cabbage]

This sounds near exactly the old problem I had building an Asus p4b266 mobo / asus 8460ultra gf4 ti4600.

The problem was very similar, (although in Win '98 rather than Xp)

The problem in the end was a duff motherboard. I'd be inclined to think the same in this case.........

Then again, I ain't no computer tech.........  ;)

[JBaymore]

Well......... it APPEARS..... that the video card nightmare and frame rate problem is SOLVED for me!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D

NOT with the NVidia / Asylum / PNY 256 Meg cards however.  Never could get them to work.

I went back to Comp USA today and turned in the PNY GeForce FX 5600 and got a slightly CHEAPER (  ;)  ) ATI Radeon 9600.

Uninstalled the GeForce 2 64 Meg card, installed the ATI 9600 card ....put in the drivers... and zip........ worked first time no glitches at all.

I haven't had time to relly wring it out and test it fully....... and with my prior experiences I am a little gunshy that something still won't "blow up".......... but it appears that the issue is taken care of to my current satisfaction.

In the quick tests that I ran using a demanding complexity aircraft (more then the C172 that I typically was using) at KBOS, daytime, default AI traffic, all settings pretty much maxed out, sittin ready for takeoff on the active, I got about 25-27 FPS where before with the 64 Meg GeForce 2 card I was getting only about 7-8 FPS with that aircraft.  Once in the air..... the framerate goes up!

It was interesting to note that a Comp USA employee who overheard my discussion at the Customer Service desk came to me and mentioned that they were getting a LOT of problems with the 256 Meg video cards.  So beware before trying them........ particularly the NVidia ones  >:(.

So...... if nothing turns up BAD in the next few days.... my video search is over (at least until "Century of Flight" probably kills my framerates again  ;) ).

As an interesting sidebar... to get to Comp USA I drive right by KASH (Boire Field) in Nashua.  Small mainly GA field. (It is in the sim.....but done badly)  Stopped at the "Wings Pilot Shop" there (great shop....and online too...chack it out) to pick up the Northeast Approach Procedures booklet...... and noticed an aircraft sound on takeoff that didn't sound typical for this area.  Turns out someone is flying a P-32!!!!!!!!  Got to see some takeoffs and landings.  Fun.

So a big THANK YOU to all who have been making suggestions and following this whole sordid fiasco.  I think there are some lessons to be taken from reading the thread...... so hopefully it will help some others out too.

best,

......................john

PS: Attack-cabbage...... the motherboard is an ASUS P4B533.

[morota]

John...

I just tried that little benchmark you metioned and this is what I got.

CNZ3 Lows 27.7 Highs 34.4
KBOS Lows 13.8 Highs 16.1

Everything is Maxed out but distance is set to Minimums

Moe

[RIC_BARKER]

John,

Glad to hear you got your gremlins worked out!  ;D

Sounds like you're getting some great frames now.

Perhaps a little screenie is in order?  ;)

Ric B.

[JBaymore]

Well......... it has been a bit and the ATI 9600 Pro seems to be pretty nice.  All has been working well so far....no unexpected glitches.  I get pretty good frame rates now........ and what a difference it makes in the flying.

An interesting thing that came up in this search is that the "demo" programs that the Asylum GeForce folks gave me to use to "test" if the issue I was having was with their cards or was the other factors I had discussed WILL NOT RUN ON THE ATI card at all.

Before I deleted them along with the now unused NVidia drivers I tried them just to see what the results would be.  The ATI will not even alow the LOAD of the programs..... I get error messages saying about 8 - 15 necessary display functions are missing ...depending on the demo.  

Apparently their deom programs are SO card specific to routines that ONLY their hardware and software support.... that you can't run them on others hardware.  NOT exactly my idea of a "fair test" to base decisions about compatibility upon.  Sort of stacking the deck.  


best,

.....................john