Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Fozzer » Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:29 pm

So let me invision this scenario.  You're flying from NYC to LAX and about two hours in to your six or seven hour flight the stewardess comes on the PA and asks "can anyone fly a plane".  You volunteer and are led to the cockpit where you sit down.  You key the mic and say "umm, help" and ATC says "okay, we understand your situation.  We could direct you pretty much anywhere in the country to land and we want you to land in zero visibility.  But first, we're going to fire some morse code at you and need you to translate it and read it back...."  :)


With a pair of headphones suddenly plonked onto your head, I defy anyone to understand a single word of the high-speed, scrambled garbage that Air Traffic Control throws at you...

...trust me... ;)...!

I find the language very similar to that used by the residents of the Planet Zorg... ::)...!

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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby C » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:14 pm

With a pair of headphones suddenly plonked onto your head, I defy anyone to understand a single word of the high-speed, scrambled garbage that Air Traffic Control throws at you...

...trust me... ;)...!



They'd have to find the PTT button first. One the last two types I've flown it hasn't been either obvious or intuitive.
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Chris_F » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:17 pm

With a pair of headphones suddenly plonked onto your head, I defy anyone to understand a single word of the high-speed, scrambled garbage that Air Traffic Control throws at you...

...trust me... ;)...!



They'd have to find the PTT button first. One the last two types I've flown it hasn't been either obvious or intuitive.

I'd assume at least one of the passengers would have picked up that $10 a minute credit card swipe phone thingie that each seat has and dialed someone on the ground to say "umm, the stewardess just asked if anyone knows how to fly a plane, I think we're eff'd."  And then I'd assume ATC would try to contact the plane on as many frequencies they could hit with: "if anyone on flight xxx can hear this , press the little button on the left of the thingie and talk..."  I doubt ATC would continue to rapid-fire speak air traffic control jibberish if they knew they were talking to a complete novice holding a couple hundred lives in their hands.

Or they could just as easily give those directions over the phone.
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby C » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:23 pm

With a pair of headphones suddenly plonked onto your head, I defy anyone to understand a single word of the high-speed, scrambled garbage that Air Traffic Control throws at you...

...trust me... ;)...!



They'd have to find the PTT button first. One the last two types I've flown it hasn't been either obvious or intuitive.

And then I'd assume ATC would try to contact the plane on as many frequencies they could hit with: "if anyone on flight xxx can hear this , press the little button on the left of the thingie and talk..."


Is that the PTT button, the (squawk) ident button or the autopilot cut out (all conveniently located just around the same place on the yoke on some aircraft). ;)

As you say, they'd need to be talking very slowly and clearly, and working on a 50/50 chance that anything the poor soul tried to say to them would ever reach them... ;D
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Chris_F » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:21 pm

I'd also assume that out of the 100-200 or so souls on board your typical commercial flight that they'd manage to find someone that was at least a little mechanically inclined.
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby expat » Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:44 pm

I'd also assume that out of the 100-200 or so souls on board your typical commercial flight that they'd manage to find someone that was at least a little mechanically inclined.  Heck, it probably wouldn't be that rare to find an actual pilot or someone in the aviation industry, or at the very least a fellow simmer.



Bearing in mind the number of Doctors that you find on aircraft.............."Ladies and Gentlemen do we have a doctor on board"
It happened on at least six flight into my airport alone this year for various reasons. Also how often do we read in the paper about babies being born at 36,000 feet or heart attack (a far greater cause of death in aircraft than any other medical related problem and you though DVT was a problem) victims thanking the doctor that just happened to be on board. To find a pilot or an industry related employee or simmer is going to be pretty high.

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2. And, if you have time to write the fault on a napkin and attach to it to the yoke.........you have time to write it in the tech log....see point 1.
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby FLYING_TRUCKER » Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:47 am

Good evening all... ;)

Still an interesting thread with a lot of different opinions.  Nothing wrong with that.... :)

Lets expand the thread a little and I am not doing this to rule out non licensed pilots (or medically expired licensenced pilots).    :)
I would like to get back to the basics of the question of the original thread.

We know that Simviation has a moderator now that is a current licensed pilot, with many more members that are also current licensed pilots.
So, my question to these folks is:
Who is it harder to train?
(1)  an ab-initio student working towards their Private Pilots License
      or
(2)  a Commercial Pilot working towards their Air Transport License

HMMM....I often wondered why I was on those compulsory courses... ::)

Now, after coming to grasp with your own opinion on the above question; and taking into account all possible variables  for example (meteorological conditions, seasons, aircraft, etc.) can you answer the question " Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane:?"

Feel free to expand the parameters if you so desire for research towards an answer.
Again, an interesting topic.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby C » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:01 am

So, my question to these folks is:
Who is it harder to train?
(1)  an ab-initio student working towards their Private Pilots License
      or
(2)  a Commercial Pilot working towards their Air Transport License



Good question. In most cases I would probably say the former, although as in everything, there's always an exception. :)
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Rifleman » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:53 am

[quote][quote]
So, my question to these folks is:
Who is it harder to train?
(1)
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Brett_Henderson » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:08 am

So, my question to these folks is:
Who is it harder to train?
(1) an ab-initio student working towards their Private Pilots License
or
(2) a Commercial Pilot working towards their Air Transport License


My choice to get back into flying (three+ years ago), while in Columbus on business; has turned out to be THE most rewarding decision of my life. The downside is that it's had me spending too much time here, but we adapt.

Anyway.. choosing to re-learn flying at KOSU was a good move. There are three established clubs here, not to mention Ohio State University's flight school based here. You can't spend much time flying out of KOSU without rubbing shoulders with, and getting to know, everyone from aeronautics professors, to aviation attorneys, to seasoned pilots (one with nearly 30,000 hours). You get to watch pilots fresh out of college work their way into airline jobs.

I had a brief stint as an instructor here... However.. all I was really doing was taking work away from the young bucks with genuine, aviation futures in front of them (some married with children). Also.. I never found that comfort zone where I'd be OK turning someone loose, carrying innocent civillians with them. It would have kept me up at night. Not wanting to pay for commercial insurance (normally covered by the club for active instructors)... I no longer instruct (and I don't miss it).

ANY anyway..... From my observations... pilots with the aptitude for advanced training (even instrument training), pretty much teach themselves. Instructors merely keep them pointed in the right direction, and point out potentially fatal mistakes along the way.

New pilots are raw, and need need need to be taught.. with strict, condescending authority. By the time their PPL'd.. they'll know if they've got "The Right Stuff".

Of course there are always unscrupulous instructors who will make them pay to learn that a PPL is all they're cut out for (and "bad" instructors who will milk someone who will NEVER be a pilot, for as much as they can before tellling them, "this aint for you").
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby FLYING_TRUCKER » Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:33 am

Good morning all... :)

Continuing on I believe one of the most important variables to consider when training someone or giving them advice is "Bad Habits".
Remember the old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink".
I don't know how many times I heard:
(1) I have been doing it this way for years and it works.
(2) I was taught to do it this way years ago.
(3) What is the difference, the outcome is the same, is it not?
(4) Oh all these new ideas, there all the same.
And the list can go on.   :)

An ab-initio student should have no "Bad Habits", none, they are just learning.  They have not had the time to pick-up any "Bad Habits" unless they have been flying on a computer program like Flight Simulator 2004, FS X and etc.
Now there is the possibility a student might pick up some "Bad Habits" but a good Flight Instructor or teacher/instructor should  and most likely will put an end to those "Bad Habits" on the first lesson.

To me an ab-initio student is much easier to teach because of the lack of "Bad Habits" which are a variable to look at.

Now me, I have no bad habits, I think, gosh I think I am darn near perfect, just ask anyone on these forums.
The old girl, now there is a different story, she has all the bad habits one could ask for, I do my best to break her of those pesky bad habits but she is just as stubborn as a mule.   ;D   ::)

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby FLYING_TRUCKER » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:16 pm

Good afternoon all... :)
We were at one of the local bugsmasher fields the other day and I knew their was something that I could not put my finger on until this morning.

It was this thread.
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby beaky » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:25 am

This is veering into interesting territory...  ;D

Just from going through five CFIs on my own journey to the PPASEL, I learned that it's tougher to make any changes once a pilot "knows a little". I didn't have any obvious bad habits, but every instructor is a little different in his or her approach, so a CFI who inherits a student is going to have to deal with that as well as just teaching the syllabus. The review flights were often as frustrating for the instructors as they were for me.
My subsequent flight reviews after getting my ticket indicated this as well: although it's not really a lesson, a BFR always has the potential for the pilot to learn something new, even a new angle on some thing he already practices.
 Sometimes pilots develop bad habits on their own, too... another thing a reviewing instructor needs to look out for.
My last BFR was pretty lightweight, being bundled in with a tailwheel checkout, but being an oooold hand, Bob was studying me very closely, looking for bad habits. His debriefs focused quite a bit on what he liked or didn't like about my basic airmananship, even after the BFR itself was a done deal. I'm happy to report that his comments were mostly positive. ;D
We talked about flying taildraggers a bit too, but that was more a matter of practice than theory, so he didn't have a whole lot to say about it during the eight hours or so of dual after he signed me off for the BFR.  ;D

My point? Hmmm... yes, there's a point here... um... oh, yes- as relates to the "we're all counting on you" airliner scenario, I think  it's hard to say who would do best: there might be a passenger who's a retired ATP with thousands of hours flying the line, but is so set in his ways he can't get up to speed with the airplane's systems (especially without a FO to do all the work), and he might also not willingly obey whoever's helping from the ground (who had better be a line instructor in type, or things will get ugly). This could create some problems. Consider how much can go wrong when a seasoned PIC makes a bad assumption or cuts a corner on even a normal flight... put the same sort of pilot in the hot seat during an "incapacitated crew" emergency in an unfamiliar flight deck and the potential for disaster increases.

On the other end of the spectrum is the kid with zero real flight time, but say, 300 hours flying that same type in the sim. If I were the line instructor  on the ground, I don't think I'd feel either one of them had a better chance of success than the other.

A really good scenario would be an ATP in the left seat and the "sim kid" in the right dealing with the checklists... kind of like any first-time flight with a captain new to the type and a newly-minted FO.   ;) ;D
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby C » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:01 am


I think it is wonderful that he has found a way to bond with his son but I am not sure it is the correct way to do it.  We have watched his circuits and they are pretty sloppy to say the least and maybe dads patience will run thin or the fad will wear off before the bad habbits are permanently formed.


Mmm, a tough one. Aside all of the other factors, if anything were to happen, and he was unable to take remedial action (as a trained FI may anticipate better), such as his son PIOing or worse, flaring late and breaking the nosewheel for example, sasically something causing eventual damage, his insurers may have something to say (unless he lied of course).

Back to topic - Mythbusters has been on loads this week in the UK, but I haven't been able to see this one in the listings... :)
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Re: Mythbusters: could a passenger land a plane?

Postby Fozzer » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:16 am

....I can recall, with much amusement, one of my most recent trips in our Club's Cessna 152's with an Instructor sat in the P2 position, asking me, "Have you flown before?"...

My reply was, "Since flying an Auster Aiglet for the Army in 1956, .....just the past 10 years, daily, on Microsoft's Flight Simulators..."....

...I could see the look of, "Blimey! Here we bleedin' go again! ...Another one of "Those"!...".... ::)...!

....LOL... ;D...!

In reality, I did quite well/very well, (he admitted), although we must remember, it was just a cute little Cessna 152...

...not a bloody-great Jumbo 747 full of screaming passengers, firmly convinced they are all going to die!... :o...!

Paul... ;D...!
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