Can a machine know?

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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Omag 2.0 » Wed May 17, 2006 5:39 am

I would also like a better description of the word know... does it mean it just registrates things? Then yes, machines know, if you provide them with the necessary sensors... as stated befors, computers are capable of selfdiagnostics...

But, are they aware? Now that's a whole different ballgame... how do you even set up some criteria to judge weather something is aware or not?

Some say animals aren't aware of themselves... I doubt that... they run or attack when they are in danger... you might say it's instinct... but that's also awareness to me...

They may not be aware of who or what they are, but that's another level. There are species like dolphins and chimps, who do recognise themselves in mirrors! So they are aware of who they are!

I the end, when you talk about intelligent machines ... living machines... I'd like to point out that in my humble opinion, they should be able to learn and react with their surrounding in other ways than they were programmed to do. But even then you don't know if they are consious...

Ah well, feels like I'm brabbling here...  ;)
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Chris_F » Wed May 17, 2006 12:07 pm

Your consciousness makes you know who you are. Aniamls don't have conscious, they can't do the difference between themselves. An animal won't reconize itself in a mirror. It's in no way connected with one's intelligence.

I could have added quotes, it's almost exactly what my philosophy teacher told us as our very first lesson ;D.


Some animals do indeed recognize themselves in a mirror.  Some animals can even recognize still photos of themselves.  All animals with a central nervous system have at least a rudamentary sense of conscousness.  That's just part of being "animal".

The conceptual common denomonator for man is "animal", the differentiator is "rational".  Hense Aristotle's definition of man as the "rational animal".  Animals are not rational.  Reason is the ability to integrate perceptual data in to concepts, which is something animals can not do.

Given that integration in to concepts, and relationships between concepts is the foundation of knowledge then this means that any machine with the capacity for knowledge must have the capacity for reason, and any machine with the capacity for reason also has the capacity for knowledge.

This, IMO is simply a technological barrier as there are no laws of physics which could prevent a non-animal entity from being rational, even though there are indeed no rational machines today.  

To penetrate this technological barrier would require an enormous increase in understanding of what biological mechanisms are responsible for reason, and how to replicate these with non-natural or non-biological means (although organic means could still be used).  Given that we hardly understand how central nervous systems function at all this would be an enormous technological achievement.  But again, it's merely a matter of technology, not philosophy or physical laws preventing it from happening today.

So yes, a machine can indeed have knowledge.  Just not any machine that has been invented or created to date.
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Hai Perso Coyone? » Wed May 17, 2006 12:43 pm

Delicious...I've got a 2,500 (NOT A TYPO) report on the Endocrine system...I shall be digging deep into the subject...I checked with some of my teachers and they said that this will look really good on my application letters...Fun stuff...I love my future career of medicine 8) 8)
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Mobius » Wed May 17, 2006 1:13 pm

Just wait until college.  I had 4 2,500+ word essays for a class in a single sememster (3.5 months), which was not fun.  It usually only took a full day or two to write them though, and I got an A in the class. :P ;D ;)
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Postby Scorpiоn » Wed May 17, 2006 2:04 pm

Omag and Chris get smart cookies for typing my thoughts out for me! :-*
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Omag 2.0 » Thu May 18, 2006 4:50 am

[quote]

The conceptual common denomonator for man is "animal", the differentiator is "rational".
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Chris_F » Thu May 18, 2006 6:44 am


I'm not quite sure if i'm following you there... What do you mean by rational? Do you mean only humans think about what they see and experience? .

No, not quite.  Some animals, especially those as complex as dogs and cats do indeed think about what the see and experience.  Like you said, they can learn that they go out through a door, they can learn to anticipate what is about to happen by indicators like reaching for door handles, etc.

But they don't conceptualize.  They can't take what they learned about your door and apply it to all doors they'll ever experience.  In fact, they don't have a sense for "door" at all.  If they were to see a strange door of totally different size, shape, color, etc from any door they've experienced they may not know that it's a door at all (especially if it doesn't share obvious characteristics with the doors they know and love).  

We humans on the other hand can conceptualize "door".  When confronted with a door like object we've never experienced we can observe it, sum it up as "door like enough" to be considered a door, and then apply all that we know about doors in general to this door.  AND if we learn anything new from this specific door we can decide if our learnings apply to all doors in general or are unique to this specific door.

That's rational, and that's what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom.
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby expat » Thu May 18, 2006 7:06 am

This conversation is far too deep.
Can a machine know?
It depends whether sods law is involved in the equation.

You are already late........your car will not start.
You are already late.........your flight is cancelled.
You are aleady late..........your 18 month old fills his nappy as you strap him into his car seat.
But he is not a machine I hear you all say.
Ah, but yes he is. All children under the age of about 4 are walking sh*t machines.

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2. And, if you have time to write the fault on a napkin and attach to it to the yoke.........you have time to write it in the tech log....see point 1.
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Fozzer » Thu May 18, 2006 7:48 am

If a machine read Chris_F's reply could it suffer a headache...?

Also, if it read any of the delightful humorous replies, could it laugh...?

My Hoover is still standing in the middle of the room, and firmly refuses to vacuum my carpet for me... >:(...!
...does it know that I want it to vacuum the carpet for me....?
Nah....I don't think so... ;)...!

LOL...!

Paul...having to do it myself... >:(...!

So much for intelligent machines...!!!
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Omag 2.0 » Thu May 18, 2006 8:35 am

Thanks Chris... I now fully grasp what you were trying to say...
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Tequila Sunrise » Thu May 18, 2006 1:18 pm

in short yes... my computer KNOWS when I have an essay due or when I need a stable conection for research. As soon as it becomes aware of this situation it will decide it nolonger wants to work...  ::)
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby H » Fri May 19, 2006 1:04 am

No, not quite.  Some animals, especially those as complex as dogs and cats do indeed think about what the see and experience.  Like you said, they can learn that they go out through a door, they can learn to anticipate what is about to happen by indicators like reaching for door handles, etc.

But they don't conceptualize.  They can't take what they learned about your door and apply it to all doors they'll ever experience.  In fact, they don't have a sense for "door" at all.  If they were to see a strange door of totally different size, shape, color, etc from any door they've experienced they may not know that it's a door at all (especially if it doesn't share obvious characteristics with the doors they know and love).  

We humans on the other hand can conceptualize "door".  When confronted with a door like object we've never experienced we can observe it, sum it up as "door like enough" to be considered a door, and then apply all that we know about doors in general to this door.  AND if we learn anything new from this specific door we can decide if our learnings apply to all doors in general or are unique to this specific door.

That's rational, and that's what separates humans from the rest of the animal kingdom.
Unfortunately, on more than one occasion, I've had people ask where the exit was when they were almost standing in front of the door -- even looked at it  ::).
More to Omag's example, I'm reminded of the events with two of our cats and one of our dogs (Stubby, mentioned on another thread last month). Except as a puppy, Stubby wasn't allowed inside the house but the cats were. Occasionally, we'd come home to find all three inside and mom blamed my sister and I for letting the dog in or leaving the door open and it was a couple years before the puzzle was solved. My dad cut the end of the house off (where the carriage/slay was kept in the by-gone days of former owners). Our entry was then changed to an old door we'd never used, not visible until after rounding the driveway. I came around the corner and saw both cats trying to manipulate the door knob but they didn't have the strength to turn it. Stubby had been laying nearby, saw what the cats were doing, trotted over, stretched up with his paws and opened the door.
Even amongst the same species (unquestionably, including human), the intelligence levels vary. Much research is carried out testing animals' ability to think and reason. A gorilla attained a fairly good working vocabulary to communicate via keyboard, including words of abstract meaning (love, anger, upset, etc.) so the verdict is yet in appeal. If we're too assuming of the definitive, it may not be rational and the rocks may be brought to life and we'll be left stoned. ;)
Last edited by H on Fri May 19, 2006 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Scorpiоn » Fri May 19, 2006 6:30 am

I dare say any animal (or thing) that engages in superfluous activities is intelligent.  I remember when some scientists were researchig cuttlefish, the cuttlefish would actually recognize each researcher and try to play with them.  Just because Mr. Cat doesn't have a concept of a door doesn't mean he's not intelligent.  Although I dispute this.  One of the skills of an intelligent being is the ability to classify.  Say up 'till this point Omag's kitty only knows this door.  Door is a single thing to the cat.  However, it would be possible by exposure to multiple kinds of doors for the cat to learn a wide spectrum of doors, all of which can be opened through manipulation.  Isn't this just training?  Yes.  But humans are merely trained as well.  The same rules apply for infants.  "This is the door.  This is a door.  These are doors."  I would say the major inhibiting factor is communication.  Humans have the unique ability to express complex thoughts, and effeciently at that.  What does a cat or a dolphin have?  Meows, clicks, scents, pheromones?  Vs a structured communication system?  Foregone conclusion.

I just felt like throwing this in.  You have animals, and you have machines.  Insects are the blurring line.  Insects are frighteningly robotic.  All animals have a combination of reasoning and instinct, no matter how weak, however insects (and perhaps all invertebrates) seem to have absolutely no reasoning whatsoever.
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Fozzer » Fri May 19, 2006 7:03 am

This thread has now digressed from "Thinking Machines" to the thoughts of domestic Cats and Ferrets...

The only thoughts flooding through all my neighbour's Cat's feeble brains each day, are how big a dump they can do on the grass in my front garden...!!!

My Hoover is now sitting in the corner of my dusty room, sulking..... again.... >:(...!

Paul... ;)...!
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Re: Can a machine know?

Postby Colonel_M00RE » Fri May 19, 2006 2:54 pm

This is a bit of a lte entry, but Alpajet, are you in an IB student cuz that was one of the prescribed TOK essay titles for this years exams. I'm still in IB 1 but we had those titles as practice essays. Pain in the butt to write but rewarding at the end of the task I guess.
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