9/11 vids

[Mobius]

So why is it so hard for so many people to believe this?

Because people just feel the need to complain, complain, complain.  I see it everyday in Madison, people complain about things that are just laughably insignificant.

[Politically Incorrect]

First I appologise I was the first that mentioned Flight 93 possibly casuing the confusion as to which plane crashed where.

CraigL stated what my thoughts are about Flight 93, the debris feild is too large for a plane that just crashed into the ground, parts being found 8+ miles away didn't just blow there they had to have been falling from the sky before the plane hit the ground, there is no other explaination.

As for a Government cover up this would be it plain and simple, no one survived the crash to say otherwise what happened.

If the aircraft was shot down the public reaction would be horrible, a passenger jet shot down over America by Americans would have casued kaos (you must remember at this time a act such of this would have been unheard of, as of 9/11 this would be more accepted by the public)

So how to cover it up if it was shot down? Make it appear as a act of heroism on the part of the passengers, again there is no one to say otherwise.

I mean absolutly no disrespect to the passengers thier families and loved ones by no means!!

There are reports of cell phone calls etc saying what was going on, but think about it your aboard a aircraft that has been hijacked in the time of stress and fear what would you do? pick up the phone and call home? Have you ever tried to call from a cell phone on a commercial airline? I have they don't work well at all

That and with all that is going on at a time like that would you be able to judge where the aircraft was heading? especially if you had no idea how to navigate, use GPS or just by looking outside for visual referance? I doubt it.


Shot down or not we can safely assume it is all speculation, just like the eyewitness that  DID see another aircraft trailing Flight 93 before it went down, DID see parts and debris falling from the plane before it went down etc....

If it wasnt shot down, then something onboard exploded a bomb or something. Something took this plane out of the sky it didnt just crash, you can clearly realize this by researching yourself and using laws of physics to realize what it would take to produce a 8 mile debris field.

Whatever happened lives were lost, that is what needs to be remembered, many many lives were tragically taken that day and for what???

I'll personally never forget, and it is good to see that others will never forget also!

[beefhole]

Well PI, I don't mean to make an example of your post, but you've aptly demonstrated the tactics of many conspiracy theorists-make completely untrue statements, but say them as though they're absolute fact.

First and foremost, cell phones work on planes when they're at low altitudes! You know, kind of like Flight 93 was?  I'm going to make a statement of fact that actually IS fact-cell phone calls were made from the plane.  THAT is irrefutable.

As for the debris-a little engineering explanation for you-

Roving Engine
CLAIM: One of Flight 93's engines was found "at a considerable distance from the crash site," according to Lyle Szupinka, a state police officer on the scene who was quoted in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Offering no evidence, a posting on Rense.com claimed: "The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner."

FACT: Experts on the scene tell PM that a fan from one of the engines was recovered in a catchment basin, downhill from the crash site. Jeff Reinbold, the National Park Service representative responsible for the Flight 93 National Memorial, confirms the direction and distance from the crash site to the basin: just over 300 yards south, which means the fan landed in the direction the jet was traveling. "It's not unusual for an engine to move or tumble across the ground," says Michael K. Hynes, an airline accident expert who investigated the crash of TWA Flight 800 out of New York City in 1996. "When you have very high velocities, 500 mph or more," Hynes says, "you are talking about 700 to 800 ft. per second. For something to hit the ground with that kind of energy, it would only take a few seconds to bounce up and travel 300 yards." Numerous crash analysts contacted by PM concur.

So yes, it's possible.

The claim that Flight 93 was shot down is, by far, the least inflamatory theory out there-if I had to make the decision, I sure as hell would've had it shot down, it was headed for Washington.  However, there's a wealth of evidence (more from the site I got the quote from) that says it wasn't.

[Politically Incorrect]

As for the debris-a little engineering explanation for you-

I assume you read that before posting?

It gives a good explaination on how a fan from a engine traveled 300 yards but stated no fact how debris got 8 miles away

Let alone answers the claim of the main engine body  being a considerable distance from the crash site.

This shows how easy people can be persuaded by what they read

BTW some of the debris found 8 miles away, human remains, seats, insulation etc....

Im not going to argue either side as to conspiracy or not, there is no point in it we all must come to our own conclusions until the truth is finally told.

I base my conclusion on the research I have already done and the facts that I had found. I understand how something can travel 300 yards when factoring in direction and speed and low altitude, I can't however understand how something arrives 8 miles away in a direction 90* to the direction of travel .


EDIT: here is a link that shows where debris was found, now you decide how it got there.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/anal ... fields.png

[Mobius]

Okay, here goes, an opinion of mine on this: any aircraft up there would that would have shot flight 93 down would have done so with a AIM-9 sidewinder, as it would have been necessary to make contact with the airliner, which would mean flying within a couple of miles of it.  The AIM-9 is a short range, infared guided missile with a range of less than 10 miles and a warhead of between 20 and 25 pounds of explosives (depending on the model).  It would be necessary to make the shot at short range so the impact site of the target aircraft could be estimated to a certain degree.  If it were shot down with either a passive or active guided missile, the shot would have to be taken from far away and the accuracy of radar guided missiles can be decreased by ground clutter close to the ground, and a gun shot would inevitabley send stray rounds and debris everywhere.  Many people think that when a missile shoots an aircraft down, the missile hits the aircraft, and causes it to explode, which is false.  Missiles actually act more like fragmentation grenades, flying to within 30 feet of the target, and using the concusive force and shrapnel from the missile body to cripple the target.  Radar guided missiles will tend to strike almost anywhere on the target aircraft, but infared guided missiles usually impact right at the engine exhaust nozzles (the hottest part of the aircraft), which, on this particular aircraft, would be on either of the wings.  If the engine were hit, it would either cause the whole wing to break apart at that section (which would bring the aircraft down), or the engine would just be totally destroyed (which wouldn't necessarily bring the aircraft down), but why was there no wing found apart from the aircraft?  The impact crater clearly showed the outline of two wings, so that couldn't be the case.  Also, an AIM-9 makes a very noticable smoke trail when fired and it would be obvious that it was used, if that were the case, why didn't these "credible" eyewitnesses report that?

Reading that website PI, they fit the bill of every other conspiracy theorist out there.  They only tell the facts that support their claim, but don't give the other side of the story, which is why I can't agree with that.

[Katahu]

Every individual has their own conclusions as to what happened based on hard evidence given, what the media says [99% of which is over the top to achieve ratings], what their beliefs are and what their experience have taught them in life.

To me, from what I can put together according to the flight data recorder, ear-witnesses who spoke with the passengers onboard and voice recordings onboard the plane and photo images of the crash, the passengers faught back against the terrorists who saw that the hostages are not cooperative and in turn forced the plane into a dive which then subjected the plane to the extreme forces of high speed which then tore up pieces of the plane in flight. And according to the image that Politically Incorrect has just provided, I can guess that plane was diving in the direction of West-North-West while the debis is still being ripped off by dynamic forces, while the effort of the passengers may have caused a distraction to the terrorist which might have caused a rolling of the plane to the South-South-West and then crashing.

But this is just my theory.

Or I could be completely wrong. It's also possible that the government did shoot down the plane and decided to the give the heroic passengers the credit of bring down the plane before it hit its intended target.

Again, just a theory and nothing more. So unless investigators manage to dig up pieces of a missile in the debris and show it to the world, I'll stick with my first theory.

[Brett_Henderson]

To me, this is still pretty simple. The plane was way off course and out of radio contact. The decision to shoot it down, had it not crashed, was likely already made. There would be no public uproar. Reasonable folks would EXPECT the plane to be shot down. There was no need for a cover-up. Even if the feds DID decide to put this masterful, heroic cover-up into motion there'd still be way too many loose ends. The airlines, insurance companies, crash scene investigators, eye witnesses, ever-nosey media, airline employees, passenger family members and any of the government employees close enough to know what happened would ALL have to have had their scripts ready and well rehearsed and STILL  be sticking to their stories. It's not only an implausible conspiracy, it's a conspiracy without merit.

An Airforce jet cannot track and shoot down a civilian airliner, in broad daylight and have that fact be so quickly and neatly covered up, even if there were good reason to cover it up.

[beefhole]

I assume you read that before posting?

Yup. Three times now.

It gives a good explaination on how a fan from a engine traveled 300 yards but stated no fact how debris got 8 miles away

I'm aware of that.  I decided to ignore it and see if you'd bring it up again.

Let alone answers the claim of the main engine body  being a considerable distance from the crash site.

Asking why a plane that hit the ground at a high speed would be found far from the initial crash sight is like asking "where are the wing marks?" for the plane that crashed into the Pentagon.  It's ludicrous.  People are used to seeing compact crash sights because when commercial airplanes go down in normal operation, they go down slow.  This one went down fast.

This shows how easy people can be persuaded by what they read

I don't see how this sentence makes any sense in context. What do you mean?  The thing I posted is fact, it just simply didn't address the 8 mile debris.

The site you posted does not indicate the direction of travel-that debris very well may have fallen of the plane while still in flight, according to Kat's theory-he is not alone in that belief.

This was a mistake.  I'm done.  I will say that I do not think it's disrespectful to be skeptical and review the circumstances-many people have taken the stance that skeptics are monsters who have no respect for the families or the country, but I am not one of them.  I just really hate conspiracy theories when there's a clear explanation.

[Mobius]

I am in total agreement with Kat here (and all those in agreement with him), no disrespect to those who aren't, but that's just my opinion.  Goodnight.

[Steve_Butka]

Anyone ever heard of "Loose Change"? You should give a look at this video. It takes a long time to d/l but it's worth it. It's a one and half hour documentary explaining what happened on 9/11........ in a "conspiracy theory" point of view. Actually I don't say everything they say is true, some details are very questionable, but this video really makes you wonder what really happen. And along with other videos, it convinced me that the twin towers didn't colapse just because of fire and very high temperatures.
So, about the pentagon, I don't know, but I wonder what hit it. Cause if a bomb just went off, or say a missile was launched and hit it, how did the pylons got pulled out of the ground like that? I guess it'd take a lot of time and it'd as well be seen by a lot of people! However, it's right that no fragments of any plane, I mean, airliner, were found there.
Anyway there's a lot of details we could talk about, some are not very clear, but it seems to be a sensible topic. What is sure is that many people died and it'll surely take  a long time to find out what really happen.

I don't have to "wonder" what happened, though.  My friend of many years (who I am camping with this weekend after not seeing her for almost 2 years) went to college in DC and saw the plane with her own eyes.

That's all the proof I really need.

[Katahu]

I don't have to "wonder" what happened, though.  My friend of many years (who I am camping with this weekend after not seeing her for almost 2 years) went to college in DC and saw the plane with her own eyes.

That's all the proof I really need.

A perfect example of someone who uses common sense.

[beefhole]

Funny loose change was mentioned-I'm giving a presentation to my history class on why it's complete bull**** next friday.

[61_OTU]

Funny loose change was mentioned-I'm giving a presentation to my history class on why it's complete bull**** next friday.

I think it's a case of too much X-Files Beef  ::)

Give 'em hell  ;)

[4_Series_Scania]

In about 50-60 years the classified findings will be released as public information and that is when we will know the truth.

Oh great, at best, I'll be 85 by the time I read that!  

If 9/11 happened as were expected to believe it did, I must be a Rabbit.  ;)

[raz]

Just want to thank you guys for all the ideas here.  The critical thinking class just watched "911 - In Plane Site"  and have to debate that.  I think I'm going to attack their theory that non-commercial jets were used at the Trade Center.  It's obviously a United paint scheme.

And people say Simviation has not real world application...
-Raz