Hooray for Monarch Airlines

[Saitek]

Ok I'll respect the grey hairs, though I disagree.

[Hagar]

This problem is becoming more common & there's one easy way to prevent it. Stop serving alcohol on all commercial flights. Manchester to Tenerife can only take 4 hours at the most. It wouldn't hurt anyone except an alcoholic to go without a drink for that short time or twice as long if necessary. They quite rightly stopped smoking so why not alcohol?

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

By George you might have something there Doug.

Four (4) hours is not long to go without a drink.
Perhaps something like that should be looked at.
The airlines have a policy which is seldom enforced BUT if a person is over the legal limit of alcohol then he can be refused boarding and is given a seat on the next flight providing he is not over the legal limit.

One of the concerns we brought forward to our union years and years ago was to stop all alcoholic beverages aboard aircraft.  
The reason being a person who has had to much to drink WILL be a hazard and can jeopardize an entire evacuation process if a forced landing is made either on land or at sea.

Another concern was having ALL passenger seats facing rearwards.  This is much safer in a forced landing or crash landing.  The neck/head/body is protected by the seat and there is chance of less injuries.
I can remember several military aircraft having the seats facing rearwards.
We seldom hear of an aircraft backing into a mountain .

There are many laws on the books, unfortunately they are not known or enforced because they might create poor public relations.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]Another concern was having ALL passenger seats facing rearwards.

[Hagar]

By George you might have something there Doug.

Four (4) hours is not long to go without a drink.
Perhaps something like that should be looked at.

It's not my idea Doug & I'm sure it's been looked at many times. It always seemed the obvious answer to me & maybe it's too easy. I enjoy a drink on a flight as much as anyone but if a confirmed nicotine addict like me can do without a smoke for however long it takes why should that not apply equally to an alcoholic? I can see no disadvantages to banning alcohol in the passenger cabin at all. There are sure to be protests as there always are & indeed were in the case of smoking. If it affects the safety of the aircraft, crew & passengers any protests are irrelevant. IMHO

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Hi Woodlouse:

It has been years since I have seen a military transport with seats facing the rear.
Any of the Tri-Stars, Boeing 707s, Airbuses all have the seats facing the way the airlines have them, facing the front of the aircraft.

I don't know if you have seen a Herc (C130) but as a passenger you sit just behind the front bulkhead and facing the inside of the aircraft with your back to the windows.  The cargo is loaded behind the passengers, guess what happens in a crash, you can get run over by a bloody vehicle in an aircraft accident LOL

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

[bbstackerf]

I've flown on many military transports as Navy brat and as a serviceman. The only one I ever flew on that had rear facing seats was a Greyhound off the Nimitz. Oh, and a few times on an SH3 which had side seats.

As for guns on aircraft when dealing with drunks, I think that would be a mistake.  Both because a drunk (depending on his level of inebriation) has no fear, and the off hand chance the gun carrier might not be experienced enough to deal the given situation with a level head. I've heard that El Al pilots carry guns? But I think armed security is best left on the ground. Situations can get out of hand quickly.

We Americans seem to be stereo-typed as shoot first and ask questions later. I totally disagree.

It's just me and a couple'a guys named Bubba from Arkansas.


Keni

[ozzy72]

It's just me and a couple'a guys named Bubba from Arkansas

[H]

I've flown on many military transports as Navy brat and as a serviceman. The only one I ever flew on that had rear facing seats was a Greyhound off the Nimitz. Oh, and a few times on an SH3 which had side seats.

I seem to remember facing the cargo on a old C5 Galaxy. Horrible not to be able to jump out of the way because you didn't see it coming.

As for guns on aircraft when dealing with drunks, I think that would be a mistake. Both because a drunk (depending on his level of inebriation) has no fear, and the off hand chance the gun carrier might not be experienced enough to deal the given situation with a level head... ...Situations can get out of hand quickly.

For one thing, you're not dealing with someone who has a 'level' head (it may or may not be after the gun goes off). If a security agent carries one, it needs be a requirement that it's accompanied by necessary training. Then you have unforseen problems like hitting turbulence while the finger is on the trigger. Yes? No? It's all kind left up in the air. We need a nonchalant, whistling'smiley' in our reply menu.

We Americans seem to be stereo-typed as shoot first and ask questions later. I totally disagree. It's just me and a couple'a guys named Bubba from Arkansas.

Yes, but who gets into the headlines so that all the rest of us gets stereotyped?

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

I so note your points and respect them.

BUT:

Many of you have grown up with a Stewardess, Air Marshall or Security Personnel aboard aircraft today. This is the norm and a pilots attention should be directed at what is happening in the cluttered, busy sky's around him and he/she should not have to worry about what is going on in the back end.
However most pilots today do have some training on how to defuse a hostile or problem situation.

I was flying long before most of you were born, we never saw a Stewardess until the late 1980s and the thought of having an Air Marshall aboard was only if a member of the Commonwealth Air Forces (Royal Air Force or Royal Canadian Air Force for example) was aboard and that was hightly unlikely.
Today most folks think of an Air Marshall as a gun toting security guard trained to protect aircraft in flight.

Where and when I flew the Captain and co-pilot were the policeman aboard, we even carried prisoners back as many places we flew into on a day by day basis had no jails, the Provincial or Federal (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) only flew up once a week, maybe.  Sometimes a police officer would stay a couple of days and we would handle the transportation of prisoners.

Most of the time it was trades men in construction or mining that had one to many drinks and needed escorting out.
Many times they were tied to the floor cargo rings as there were no seats in the back of the DC3 as we were carrying freight.
Try that today with a prisoner and you will probably get your pinky slapped LOL.

AND:

We would actually leave passengers behind for the next scheduled flight, maybe the same day as the Royal Mail had priority.  
Most cargo was sent as mail as were many perishables as there were no roads and everything went in by air.

I could go on forever on this but I shall stop babbling now about how it used to be but leave you with this thought.

The weapon (revolver, pistol, rifle, shotgun) were just like the aircraft, only tools of the trade and in all of my years of flying I can honestly say I have never seen any of them used inappropriately by any aircrew.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug

[Hagar]

I so note your points and respect them.

Likewise which I hope goes without saying.

What you're saying might be true for Canada & the USA but the situation is quite different in other countries including the UK. I doubt very much that pilots of major British airlines have ever felt the need to carry firearms except in time of war. The British airline pilots own union (BALPA) has consistently & strongly resisted all efforts to change that. They have recently reluctantly agreed to the idea of air marshals but only to comply with the requirements of countries like the US that insist on them being carried on all airliners entering their airspace.

Dealing with drunken passengers as in this incident is a fairly recent problem here & I have suggested a way to deal with it permanently & without arming the crew or forcing them to carry armed air marshals against their wishes. I'm sure this is a far better way than relying on guns.

[Craig.]

Bill him for the diversion costs and be done with it. why fill up another prison cell for someone who in the end did nothing but cause an inconvience. No point using the "he might have done this" excuse as he didn't.

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Hi Doug

I agree whole hearted with you on everything you have said in this post.

Please do not think I am an advocator for the use of firearms as I am not.
A firearm is a tool just like an aircraft to a pilot.  I realize the difference between Europe and Canada is the vastness of the land in general.

One can not compare Canada and the United States of America regarding firearms regulations as they are vastly different just like our health care and social programs.

Please let me point out that even in Southern Ontario which is where I live, a pilot can travel in a high performance single engine aircraft and that excludes your Cessna 150s, 172s Piper 140s etc. the full extent of fuel plus alternate and never see a dwelling outside of maybe a hunt camp.  This country is vast, we still have lakes, and such no man/woman has set foot in.  It makes me laugh as we want to go to the moon LMAO.

I can put most of Europe in Ontario alone I think, and our Great Lakes thats another story.

Our great neightbours to the south, the United States of America are much more populated, but there are still regions of vast habitable areas.

I know that things are very much different here today than when I was flying, the screening process of passengers, the Transport Canada Rules and Regulations about ELTs, Crew Hours, Aircraft Maintenance, carrying of life preservers and survival equipment, it is all on paper now and usually enforced.

I was very fortunate Doug and the rest of you lot, I embarked on an Aviation Career (not a job/position) at the end of World War Two.  Where ladies were ladies, where men were men and a disagreement could be settled outside.  I was taught by the best, the men and women of the Allied Forces (air element).

When I terminated my Military Flying Career and entered the realm of Commercial Flying I was hired by the "(oldest and largest privately owned flying airlilne in the world)" now look that one up you lot.

I have a pass to fly almost anywhere, a gold watch and a pension.  Not bad for a fella the old man said would be nothing when I decided that the military life was not for me.  (Do not know what is wrong with our children though, most of them are still in the military)

NOW:

Back to the post Doug...YES...I agree with you 100%.

Cheers...Happy Landings...Doug
P.S. a longwinded Bush, Military, Commercial and General Grass Roots Flyer

[beaky]

Getting back to the spirit of the first post here:
I applaud this action. Too bad they couldn't dump him on some guano-covered rock with no airport, to sober up for a few days before a 20-mile ride in a rowboat in rough seas... preferably followed by a 20-hr. bus trip home;D
It's wonderfully civilized to have cocktails while zooming through the sky at near-Mach speeds, but there has to be a limit, and it has to be assumed that the limit will be enforced. Even a limo driver should only be expected to put up with so much...airline passengers need to maintain a high standard, or it ruins the whole experience. Next kid who kicks my seat all the way to Miami is going to get spanked. If his guardian won't do it, I will... but that's another whole story.
 This guy the right to be disappointed because he couldn't have another drink, but he blew it when he cussed out a flight attendant. A good flight attendant is worth a couple dozen train conductors, at least.They're special people.
I've never been one to want to get wasted on flights- if anything goes awry, I want to have my wits about me... unless it looks hopeless. Then I'll be raiding the galley.

[FLYING_TRUCKER]

Right you are Sean

I still can not see why it took four hours to drop off a drunk!

That is ludicrous, I am glad I was not on that flight as someone other than just the drunk would have gotten a good tongue lashing.

HMMMM...maybe as we get older our patience wears thinner...will have to look into that LOL