Survival of US industry?

[Hagar]

[quote]

[Paz]

 Attendance is another issue that I can't understand, I am proud that I have never been one to miss work unless it is absolutely necessary, but under the union I have never seen a more ineffective attendance policy, or one that allows people to miss so much work without consequence. It is entirely possible to take a week or two off every month of the year (and I see this happen) with no loss of bonus or profit sharing as long as you have a note from a doctor, and these people who so obviously abuse this policy think it's funny, they do not have serious health problems, they have doctors who will write them an excuse for the asking.

 Personally I strongly disagree with employees with attendance problems being treated no different than those such as myself who never miss a single day, why should they be allowed the same profit sharing bonuses when they are not actually there building the product from which the profit is created in the first place.
The system is supposed to be set up so if you miss work you lose different percentages of the bonus, as if to reward those who come to work each and every day, but it doesn't work because excused absences don't count against your bonus no matter how excessive. All the good reliable employees see this going on each quarter but there is nothing you can do, the union does everything it can to protect people who don't want to come to work, so therefore, having perfect attendance accounts for nothing where I work except for self pride and a full paycheck every week, they don't in any way even acknowledge the employees who have perfect attendance.
 

[Hagar]

It's bad enough to have to carry dead weight when working alongside someone with no interest in or knowledge of what they're doing. I've had to do that enough times but I don't think I could work for a company like that Paz. Fortunately I've never been forced to.

[Paz]

I don't think I could work for a company like that Paz. Fortunately I've never been forced to.

[jordonj]

It doesn't take unions to make people untouchable Paz.  I worked in a shop where there was this guy who would avoid work.  He would be talking to other people or just fooling around most of the day.  The guy who ran the place would just say "he's handicapped" and not do anything about it.  Another employee there would blatantly harass the women (put his arm around them, try to kiss them, etc.).  He also had a disabilty, but that did not make the behavior okay.  He was extremely difficult to deal with because of his temper (I think he was used to getting his own way).  Believe me though, he was not so handicapped that he didn't know what he was doing as he could control his behavior when he needed to.  Again, the boss wouldn't do anything to deal with his behavior.

I left that hole two years ago.  Last I heard, the boss got demoted,  the first guy gets very few hours (is only used when they need snow shoveled), and the second guy has been threatened with jail a few times (which is where he will go if he keeps this up).

Another story, we had a cleaning woman in a nursing home where I once worked who would steal other people's lunches.  They wouldn't fire her.  Banning her from the break room did no good as she just went in there when nobody was there.  We fixed her by making brownies with a certain special ingredient (ex-lax ).

The D.O.N. called a special meeting wanting rake somebody over the coals about it, but there was nothing we could do.  We never actually offered these brownies to her...we just had them in our lunches!

She never stole again after that!

[Hagar]

[quote]Remember, this is the "best" company in this area, AM General, we build all the Humvees for armed forces everywhere. I waited three years after turning in my resume before being hired in, this is the place every one wants to work, but many never try due to the pre-employment drug screening and 4 random drug tests your first year, after that you can go out at lunch and smoke all the pot or snort all you want because the union says no drug testing after year 1 of employment.

[Katahu]

[quote]
I understand & sympathise. From what I've seen of you here you seem a decent, honest man who works hard & is proud of the job he does -

[Hagar]

In the US military, from what I've seen so far, you will get kicked out without question if you are lazy and aren't doing what you are being trained and paid to do.
As for civilian life, I'm not so sure. I haven't experience any civilian job whatsoever.
...................................

If only this country was more like the Military and less like the union. Maybe then this country might get its economy back together.

The military is a separate issue & I imagine the same applies to the armed services in all countries. To the best of my knowledge unions are illegal for the military which is obvious if you think about it. The whole structure of the armed services is based on the concept of obeying orders without question. In theory you are on duty 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year. Imagine the chaos if a unit refused to go & fight because they were out on strike for some reason or another. The point is that while some companies might be run in a similar way & even treat their employees worse than most people in uniform, most civilians have no wish to live in this way or they would choose the services as a career.

[Katahu]

Good point there Hagar. As you know, I know nothing about economics.

I'm the kind of person who is more of a workaholic. I work not just to get money but to also learn and survive the world we live in today. I will be damned if I have to work with some bum who does nothing and still get paid a lot while I bust my @555 for the same amount. However, with the way things are, I might experience that one day.

Considering that lazy workers get permission slips from doctors, I might be able to get a job in the civilian pharmacies. There are doctors out there who will always write prescriptions like Adderal or Darvacet for stupid things like a toothache [which can be remedied with Motrin].

Hold on a tick.....

I think I see the chain of events now.

1. Mr. Lazy gets a job at McDonalds.

2. Mr. Lazy goes to a doctor after work and asks for permission slip to get off work because of a [he's making it up] serious backache.

2a. At the same time, the doc prescribes Darvacet [a narc].

3. Mr. Lazy doesn't go to work simply because he is drowsy from the med.

4. Mr. Lazy goes back to the doc and asks for an extension because of a [still making it up] accident that supposedly twisted his ankle. Doc then writes an Rx for more meds.

5. Mr. Lazy goes to play soccer with his pals.

6. Mr. Lazy goes to work. 2 hours later, he out early because of the permission slip from the doc and because of his [more pretence] handicap.

6a. Employer becomes suspicious and discovers it's a fraud. He fires Mr. Lazy.

6b. Employer gets hammered by the Union.

6c. Mr. Lazy is back to work with full pay.

7. Repeat.

[Hagar]

Good point there Hagar. As you know, I know nothing about economics.

I probably know less about economics than you. Most of my knowledge comes from observation during my working life & in the 'University of Hard Knocks'. Many people leaving the armed services have problems adjusting to life in the world outside. This is hardly surprising as it's very different to what they've become used to & their rank & seniority means nothing in the civilian world. Nobody is going to jump around or take the slightest notice of an ex-drill sergeant no matter how loud he might shout orders.

I'm not anti-union & they are still necessary. Unfortunately they get a bad reputation due to incompetence in the way they often end up being run, by extremists for their own ends rather than the benefit of the workers they're supposed to represent.

People have different ethical values on the subject of working & some believe that the world owes them a living simply for being born. I expect this applies as much in your country as it does mine. Many people that woud prefer to live off benefit than work know exactly how to milk the system & get every benefit imaginable while others who badly need all the help they can get very often don't qualify for some reason or other. In some cases there are are whole families that have lived like this for generations & know no other way. On the other hand, someone like me who has worked hard all my life would get no benefit at all if I happened to fall on hard times. I would have to sell my home & spend all my savings before they would give me a single penny. It's unfair but that's the way it is. Nobody said life is fair.

[TacitBlue]

Nobody said life is fair.

Damn right. It's unfortunate, but that is true. I guess you're right, unions are still useful in some cases. Just going by my observations though, they do more harm than good. And there are always worthless slobs around to take advantage. It always amazes me how some people have NO work ethic what so ever. What ever happened to the attitude of "this is my job, and I'm going to do it right"? Personally, I don't even like my job very much, but I give it 100% every day.

[Hagar]

I guess you're right, unions are still useful in some cases.

In my view unions will be necessary all the time there are unscrupulous employers taking advantage of their employees. Unfortunately some union bosses are more unscrupulous than the employers themselves. In extreme cases a union can become all-powerful & the leaders can even hold the country to ransom or influence political decisions. They can also hold absolute power over their own members. I recall one tiny example of this some years ago; The stevedores at a small port not far from where I live had to be vetted by the foreman who was also the local union representative. It was a closed shop so you had become a union member to be considered for employment. Unless you were a friend of his you had no chance of getting a job. Simple as that.

PS. This was common knowledge but there was nothing anyone could do about it as he would simply have downed tools & called all his mates out on strike.

[H]

In my view unions will be necessary all the time there are unscrupulous employers taking advantage of their employees. Unfortunately some union bosses are more unscrupulous than the employers themselves. In extreme cases a union can become all-powerful & the leaders can even hold the country to ransom or influence political decisions. They can also hold absolute power over their own members. I recall one tiny example of this some years ago; The stevedores at a small port not far from where I live had to be vetted by the foreman who was also the local union representative. It was a closed shop so you had become a union member to be considered for employment. Unless you were a friend of his you had no chance of getting a job. Simple as that.

And so it's been on this this side of the big puddle.

[C]

The military is a separate issue & I imagine the same applies to the armed services in all countries. To the best of my knowledge unions are illegal for the military which is obvious if you think about it. The whole structure of the armed services is based on the concept of obeying orders without question. In theory you are on duty 24 hours a day 7 days a week 365 days a year. Imagine the chaos if a unit refused to go & fight because they were out on strike for some reason or another. The point is that while some companies might be run in a similar way & even treat their employees worse than most people in uniform, most civilians have no wish to live in this way or they would choose the services as a career.

I've always wondered why this hasn't also applied to the emergency services in this country. We've had numerous fireman's strikes, and the threat of ambulance workers strike up here recently (apparently they wanted an "uninterruptable" lunch hour). They don't seem to care that whenever they do this it either puts more pressure on their colleagues in other regions, or in the worse case of the ridiculous fireman's strikes, mean that our (already) overstretched armed forces have to go and train to be firefighters, and provide cover, which can really mess up their lives. Thankfully I've missed out on those so far, but if their was another nationwide strike in 6 months time, I may well end up in a fire engine...

Charlie (on duty 24/7/52/365)

[Hagar]

I've always wondered why this hasn't also applied to the emergency services in this country. We've had numerous fireman's strikes, and the threat of ambulance workers strike up here recently (apparently they wanted an "uninterruptable" lunch hour).

If I remember correctly it did until fairly recently. I don't recall the circumstances but I believe the first strike in the history of the Fire Brigade only happened a few years ago. I've been told that even the police work a 5-day week with no overtime now & our local police station is only open during office hours. I'd better refrain from further comment.

PS. First national fireman's strike 14th November 1977. http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/14/newsid_3154000/3154632.stm