The Shuttle was a MISTAKE?

[BFMF]

[quote]I seem to remember reading somewhere that the LEM had a computer about the power of an Apple 64 in it.

[Hagar]

Hmmn... eleven pages and we're still lost in space.

Exactly. I did point out right from the start that I didn't set out to change anyone's mind on this as I know that would be an impossible task. The only reason I'm still taking part in this discussion is to fill in some of the history behind the manned space program that seems to have been conveniently forgotten or simply not common knowledge today. This surprises me as most people I know have known these things for as long as I have & like me, most of them are not particularly interested in space exploration. They learned about it either while these things were taking place or by reading about it in the newspapers & watching TV news or special programmes about it as more more informaton became available. Without knowing the history behind it you cannot possibly understand the broader picture & get some idea of what I'm trying to say.

I also wished to put the record straight by addressing certain statements as they cropped up that I know to be incorrect or simply untrue. While someone more knowledgeable on the subject than me might correct me on specifics, nobody can say that anything I've said in this respect is not true. Just because we're some thousands of miles away from where this is going on doesn't mean that we are blissfully unaware of it. In fact, looking at this from a distance might make it much clearer for me than for someone closer to it. It seems that a silly old fool living on the south coast of England with only a passing interest in the space program knows far more about it than many people who profess to be experts on the subject & certainly more than many people might think.

[quote]One of the things that really hit me the first time I went to the Kennedy Space CEnter and looked a the exhibits....was that the hardware looked like the most PRIMITIVE stuff by todays standards.

[Hagar]

[quote]What is interesting to me is with all this computerized technology even in the earily 1960s, the early space capsules did not have any kind of onboard computer.

[RichieB16]

Your right that really the only people who believed it could be done from the start was von Braun and Korolev.  In fact, when Yuri Gagarin because the first man to fly into space on Vostok 1 there was a lot of concern that we had lost the "race" and they had to decide what to set the national goal too.  A lot of people in NASA wanted to build an oribital lab (space station) instead of going to the moon.  But, it was decided that if the US and USSR got into a race over heavy lifting (all a space station would show) then we would lose until probably 1966 because we were behind with rocket designs.  A moon shot was a better idea because not only would a strong rocket be needed (which the Russian's were ahead with) but special technology which hadn't been invented yet (which were were leading with).  So, it was thought that we had a better chance to win and thats why Kennedy promised the moon in that speech.

One interesting thing though, it may not have been nearly as big of a deal had Werner von Braun not been as causious.  In March of 1961, (1 month before Gagarin's flight), NASA was planning a manned Mercury-Redstone flight which would have out the first man in space.  When the decision time came, von Braun wasn't completely comfortable with the safety of the rocket and capsule and wanted one more unmanned test, so an unmanned flight was launched in March (the manned mission bumped to May).  The unmanned flight went perfectly.  In April and Russian's launched Vostok 1 (manned orbital flight) and the US found themselves behind.  In May, "Freedom 7" flew with Alan Shepard onboard putting the first American in space on a balistic suborbital flight.  Had NASA manned the March flight and put the first man in space, Kennedy may never had made that speech and a race to the moon may not have happened (at least not by the end of the 1960s).

Richie. I think you have to appreciate that the crews on those early manned missions were little more than passengers. The first mammals in space had been chimpanzees & dogs that had no control over the space vehicles at all. The computers available at the time were simply too bulky & heavy to consider carrying in the spacecraft & would have remained on the ground where the major part of the mission was controlled from.

Your right, the computers were too heavy.  But, the Mercury astronauts did have some control of the capsule.  In fact, astronaut Scott Carpenter took control of his "Aurora 7" capsule during reenrty because he believed he was offcourse.  As it turned out, his instruments were wrong so he didn't need to take manual control-but he did successifully land his capsule manually (although offcourse by about 200 miles).  The Russian Vostok and Voskhod were completely automated though-the cosmonaut not only didn't have control normally, but if he needed to take control he had to open a sealed envelope and punch in a unlocking code.  But, this was only allowed under extreme circumstances and if the cosmonaut had taken control without need, punishment was said to be severe.  But, that was never needed.

[Hagar]

Hi Richie. You know I respect your great knowledge on this subject which is far greater than mine will ever be. Also your ambitions & dreams in which I wish you every success. Despite my cynical outlook on all this I always admired the Americans for doing it openly so that if anything went wrong the whole world would know about it & possibly watch it happening live on their TV screens. The Russians on the other hand had an advantage in that most of what they were doing was top secret & not announced until after the event - and only then if it had been successful. I suspect this explains von Braun's caution as he couldn't afford a disaster early on in the program, not that he would have wanted one at any time.

I'm under no illusions that we were told everything & it's possible there are things about the US manned space program that are still regarded as Top Secret today & possibly never will come to light. I'm convinced that it wouldn't have succeeded in any other conditions (not in that time period anyway) with two great minds competing against each other towards a common aim which was vitally important to the balance of power. To beat each other to the Moon. Only one could succeed & one would sadly die before finishing the job. We shall never know but there could well have been a different outcome had this not happened. Great strides were made in a very short time which is similar to what happened in aviation during both World Wars. Unfortunately this is the price we sometimes have to pay for progress.

PS. On the subject of JFK's speech. While researching this I read that he called the Mercury 7 astronauts to Washington and while they were there he discussed the possibility of sending a manned spacecraft to loop around the Moon and return to Earth. They thought this ambitious but just possible. No mention was made of an actual landing or time limit. When they heard his speech, made just 20 days after Alan Shepard's first brief hop they were as surprised as anyone & thought that this was a step too far but by then it was too late. The goal had been set & broadcast for the whole world to hear it.

"I believe this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before the decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to earth".

President John F. Kennedy. May 25, 1961

Quite honestly, when I heard him say that I put it down as just another politician's promise. Politicians do that sort of thing all the time & I've never been one to take these things too seriously. I never thought for one moment that I would ever see this happen during my lifetime, let alone watch it all happening on TV.

[RichieB16]

I do know that the 7 astronauts were suprised by JFK's bold prediction and well as most of the counrty.

[Hagar]

All this is fascinating stuff. I remember that it was commonly believed at the time that if anything went wrong with the Apollo 11 mission & the astronauts were stuck on the Moon that the Russians (or USSR as it was then) could & would have organised a rescue mission. By this time I didn't doubt it myself & bear in mind that the full facts on the Soviet space program were unknown then. So many fantastic things had happened in such a very short space of time that it was not difficult to believe that almost anything was possible.

[RichieB16]

My understanding is that a resuce mission for a stranded lunar crew would have been impossible.

[Hagar]

[quote]One more interesting fact, when the Soviets learned that NASA was about to send a manned lunar landing crew-they did make a last ditch effort to beat the Americans.

[RichieB16]

I don't think NASA or the Soviets would have discouraged the belief that a rescue was possible.

I agree, I think that was something that both tried to avoid all together.  I really don't know of anything NASA ever said about a rescue plan.  I think they knew it wasn't possible with the technology of the program and simply tried to avoid the question.  They did have a backup plan in the event something was wrong with the capsule, the LEM would be used as a lifeboat.  Most at NASA figured this wouldn't work because the LEM's supply capacity was to small and they considered it a last ditch plan.  But, in the end-that was needed on Apollo 13 and it worked and helped bring the crew safely home.  But, there was no contingency plan for a straned crew on the surface.

Just an interesting historical fact though.  In 1973, NASA got very close to sending a rescue capsule to the Skylab Space Station.  The second Skylab crew (Skylab 3) discovered that the thrusters were failing on their capsule.  When they went to warm the capsule up, they were having problems (this was about mid way through the mission-they must have periodically powered it up).  At first, only one of the four failed and then a second one failed.  So, NASA modified a capsule that they had-they removed the storage containers in the back of the capsule and added 2 more seats so it would accomidate a crew of 5.  They also began training a 2 person crew to fly the capsule to the station and bring the crew home.  As the launch date approached, the engineers were able to isolate the problem and the malfunctioning capsule was used to bring the crew home.  The rescue wasn't needed, but they were close to launching it.  That would have been the only rescue in manned space flight's history.

[H]

Kennedy promised the moon in that speech.

Isn't that common for a politician?

[RichieB16]

Isn't that common for a politician?

Yeah, but this time they came through.