The Shuttle was a MISTAKE?

[Hagar]

[quote]if the military aspect was not there..... the whole pile of research would simply NOT get funded at all.

[pete]

I agree with John & many others.

I think (know) we need to divert attention & expenditure (investment)  into what is our real & serious challenge - our children's survival in the current population & wealth explosion.  This is immediate & current.

The masses in many high polution countries don't give our air much consideration.  They're thinking 'cars, apartments & lifestyle' - very hard to blend 'pollution' & 'atmpospheric destruction' into the minds of people enjoying new wealth ..  (& many of the old timers too)

Those of us with children should care - because this little earth simply cannot support where we are going.

A space alternative for anything but a token few is unrealistic at present & immediate future - & it's the immediate future we are looking at.

There IS huge profit to be made out of regenerative products & efficient power production.
My Q is - how long will it be that those in power will realise this & will it be too late for many 100's of millions - including our own?

[legoalex2000]

i undnerstand why they would want to stop space exploration, but if we have intentions of leaving this planet (IF..) when do we get back on track?

how do you just say lets stop space exploration for a hundred years or so? we just can't do it. we are too involved, too advanced to drop our chance to explore "the final frontier"

(i'm watching Star Trek TNG, lol!)

i say continue with space exploration. but lessen missions to what is absolutely necessiary. and keep manned explorations to an even less priority until it is time that the mass people can leave the planet.

Ramos

[Hagar]

Thank you Pete. Had you posted that before it would have saved me a lot of typing. You might well agree with John & others that think like him but most of what you're saying is exactly what I was trying to say myself. I have the future of my brand-new granddaughter to worry about & our views are not as far apart as you might think.

Those of us with children should care - because this little earth simply cannot support where we are going.  

A space alternative for anything but a token few is unrealistic at present & immediate future - & it's the immediate future we are looking at.

[JBaymore]

My Q is - how long will it be that those in power will realise this & will it be too late for many 100's of millions - including our own?

< ;)continuing politics risk  ;)>

It is hard to get into this stuff without dragging in SOME political aspects.  Politics is basically what got this mess of the world to where it is  ;).

Yup... hagar, I'm REAL concerned for my kids and grand kids too (when/if they arrive).

I have long been an advocate of the old 60's "movement" ZPG (Zero Population Growth) that somehow basically died out pretty much completely.  I also have been an advocate for renewable energy and non-certralized power production for a long time too.

The whole centralized power production scheme was/is designed to benefit the big businesses that sell the stuff.... not the environment.  If you look at the gross incomes of the energy companies... you can find the REAL power centers in the world today.  Private contributors money is what really controlls the 99.999999999 percent of polititians......... for all their posturing.  

Energy use in the ceramics field is one of my specialties........ so I've spent some time professionally researching this whole subject.  It is fascinating and depressing at the same time.  

For example, if you look a the efficiency difference between burning a cubic foot of methane in a power plant to generate electricity..... and burning it at home and using the heat directly...... you'll about %$#@ !  The percent of the energy available at the electric outlet when compared to the energy that was consumed to get it there it absolutely ABSURD!  The huge majority is lost in energy type and mechanical conversions and in transmission losses.  It is so bad it is a sick joke.

"Clean efficient electricity"........ B.S.

I've had solar collectors on the roof of this house for about 30 years now, a passive solar greenhouse, and two woodstoves....... one of which I designed using my knowledge of kilns and wood combustion and had someone build.

I've been using wood as a fuel to fire my pottery since 1969.  Currently I fire my kilns on all scrap wood that normally gets burned in a pile at a landfill.  A low technology scrubbing system cleans up the smoke emissions.

If all of America suddenly cut our energy use by 50% or more overnight.... which is of course impractical and impossible and just won't happen....... all of the huge population of the REST of the world will still be chasing all the "modern 20th Century stuff" and consuming more ,and more and more fuel...and putting out more and more and more pollution.

Not to mention food consumption and toxic wastes.

We (the total planet wide "collective" WE) have already let this situation get away from us, I am afraid.  I really don't know if it is fixable now.  Maybe we are fighting a "delaying action" as the rear guard.  I see the space program as part of that action..... trying to have some survivors.

I HOPE I am totally and absolutely wrong.  

best,

....................john

[Hagar]

I HOPE I am totally and absolutely wrong.

So do I. I might be completely wrong too but I'm not prepared to give up that easily. Going by the progress made since the last Moon landing - by the time we could establish a fully functional settlement on Mars or any other planet within reach it would probably be far too late. Even if that is possible it's a high-risk gamble with every chance of failure. Mother Nature tends to play her part in this by reducing the population by various means. It's a hard fact of life but disease & famine are all part of this. The survival of the fittest. This is actually not very different to the alternative.

[beefhole]

Wow, check that out.  An admin actually AGREED with me.  This goes in my book

[JBaymore]

Mother Nature tends to play her part in this by reducing the population by various means. It's a hard fact of life but disease & famine are all part of this. The survival of the fittest. This is actually not very different to the alternative.

Yes....... this is the "wild card" that may, in a totally bizzare way, give humanity its "second chance" out of this current mess.  If you really want to call that a "chance"  :o .

There are those that believe that the Earth as a whole is sort of an "entity" in a strange way.... the Gaia bit.  And that the earth's system has a way of dealing with global level stuff when it gets too out of whack.  So in that view...... "Mother Earth" might just be getting ready to "fix" the problem by getting rid of the overpopluation of those pesky, polluting humans infesting it.  They are becoming a bit "tiresome".  SWAT!  :o

You are right... it might be "Bird Flu" or maybe AIDS... or more likely one we don't know about yet that is the factor that quickly "solves" the massive over-population issues.....and gives the human race more time to try to figure it all out and learn to live with each other and within our means.  

Or maybe the over-population further stresses the issues of the "haves" and the "have nots" in the world.... and we exterminate huge populations via wars over stuff like oil, food, or the REAL issue... clean water.  The one thing that humans have (unfortunately) proven themselves very good at is hating each other because one believes or thinks "X" and the other believes or thinks "Y" ......... and then killing each other off.

No matter how you slice it...... I think we have a mess on our hands at the moment.  And the polititians of the world are not exactly rushing to address any of it.  It is too hard a problem......... and they are too focused on short term self interests.  And the populace in general would rather believe "feel good" messages out of the polititian's mouths...than face the hard issue the truth puts up.  (Can you blame them?  ;))

If you look at stuff like the tsunami situation in Indonesia... and the mess in New Orleans...... you realize that no matter what the polititians say in public....... no human effort is really up to these types of massive catastrophies.  I don't think it CAN be.  And the situation in New Orleans is nothing compared to what would happen with even one nuclear bomb going off in a major city.

All this natural disaster stuff shows you how fragile this "secure life" many of us have created around ourselves actually is.  We live in a soap bubble of false sense of "security".

No... I think the shuttle was not a mistake.  The mistake was that it wasn't big enough an effort, fast enough. It was a start that should have been followed with far more aggressive programs right on its heels.  We stalled the whole space program for too long....... we didn't follow up on what we developed fast enough or with the resources we should have.   Now it might really be too late.

Zero population growth at least would stall the world's population right where it is now........ which is already too many people.  But it would be a start toward really fixing things.  Then addressing the OTHER issues like pollution and the consumption of non-renewable resources would have a paryer of a hope of accomplishing something.

best,

......................john

[Hagar]

Well, while the situation looks bad I've always been an optimist & hope I also have a positive outlook. Whenever I get depressed about the state of the world I remember that I was born in 1943 when things in my country looked even worse. The fact that I'm here now proves that it didn't turn out quite as badly as one might have expected at the time.

As you mentioned the tsunami & the Katrina thing, what makes you think that we could cope with much greater difficulties in outer space when every single thing we need would have to be taken with us & we're working in an alien environment in clumsy space suits? If we think we can provide enough water to support a settlement on Mars & every single living thing in it, why not do it right here where it must be far easier?

[JBaymore]

I'm normally a lot more optimistic than I am on this particular issue.

[Hagar]

[quote]No, the space colony thing really IS a last ditch safety valve for the human race if we ever achieve it.

[JBaymore]

In that case I see no point in trying to do it at all. A wild gamble with very little possibility of success. It's not likely to benefit me or my loved ones so saving the Human race doesn't come into it.

So this long discussion has been a good one ........... because we now each know the real "root" of the two different views.

best,

...............john

[RichieB16]

I don't think that creating a coloney on another world really has anything to do with needing to do it (at least because of the current state of the world and how it appears to be going).

[Hagar]

So this long discussion has been a good one ........... because we now each know the real "root" of the two different views.

Indeed it has. I had no idea that the reason you're suggesting is the real reason behind the space program. Basically it comes down to this; We've messed up the planet that we've lived on for thousands of years. Nothing we can do about that & it's not even worth trying so we give up & put all our energy into going to another one millions of miles away. It might take decades or centuries but if & when we succeed we go & mess that one up too. Oh, one little thing I forgot to mention, you can help us to achieve this amazing feat but sorry you won't be coming.

Sorry but no thanks. I would rather stay here along with the others. I happen to like it here & have no wish to live in an alien & unfamiliar environment or cooped up in some sort of structure with no chance of going outside. That's not my idea of living & it sounds more like a prison to me, actually worse as there's no way I will ever be released.

Somehow I prefer Richie's dream. As I said early on, do it if you must but if you do, make sure it's for the right reasons.

In my opinion, testing the limits of mankinds ability is the most valuable thing that we can get out of the space program today.

This is the motive that has always driven the explorers & pioneers.

[Flt.Lt.Andrew]

That'd be sick fun! Left behind! W00T! Maybe we can go and live in massive houses those have left behind, and LOOT! HAHAHAHAAHAHA! HOW DO YOU LIKE IT NOW, SPACE TRAVELLING CELEBRITIES?! BAAHAHAHAAHAA!


A.