Discipline

[Deputy]

[quote]I can tell my children they're doing wrong with just a look.

[Deputy]

As the ambulance is leaving, we ask the father if he'll go inside and talk to us about some things. He obviously complies, and takes us into the living room. We told him how lucky he was to have a child that was still alive. We went on to tell him that we were not going to charge him for the false police report, because we were willing to take the time to get the truth out of him. We could have been out of there in an hour. Instead, we were there for about 3-4 hours. We asked the father how he was planning on punishing his child, and he said that first, he's getting a spanking, and then he's getting grounded for a while. That was music to our ears, as our juvenile courts are overfilling the beds available. We told him that his boy would likely be held overnight in the "hall" but would be released in the morning. Personally, I think the dad was a flake. I don't think he really cared. I've arrested this same juvenile many times for various crimes, including the most recent, being burglary and criminal mischief. He also has been arrested in conjunction with involvment of a clandestine lab.



Also about 2 years ago, I arrested a female juvenile for (I don't honestly remember what) something. Her charges were dropped. Her parents were going to punish her by grounding her, and limiting her contact with friends.

I have yet to have further contact with this female.


Moral of these two real stories are that different children need different punishments. Sometimes one thing will work with one child, others, it wont. There is no magic method for disciplining children.

[Hagar]

My first thought after reading through 6 pages of this thread is that this topic has been done to death. It's obvious that everyone contributing to it has very different views on discipline, mainly influenced by their own upbringing. As in most similar cases, nothing I or anyone else says here is likely to change those views, in fact it could have the opposite effect. By reading through it (which I admit I wasn't forced to) I've already discovered highly personal details of forum members, most of whom I regard as friends, that I would rather not have known.

I think that most children do something wrong, because they want attention. Below is a story that helps.... strengthen that feeling.

On reading your long story I would have to ask what you think this young lad should be punished for. When I think back to all the stupid things I did at his age I consider myself lucky to have come through without serious injury or even death. The most serious thing he did was to lie to his father about what happened, completely wasting the time of the emergency services. If something similar had happened to me I would have owned up & told the truth. The whole thing would have been over & done with, me being carted off to hospital without the police becoming involved. This is what I've been trying to get over, discipline properly taught teaches you respect for others & yourself. It also teaches you to take responsibilty for your own actions & not blame others for them. If this had happened to me I would have learned my lesson & never have done something so stupid again without needing further punishment. I would have realised how stupid I was & how lucky I was to get away with it - not blamed my misfortune on anyone else. If this boy doesn't know that at his age, further punishment would be pointless anyway.

I also have to ask what sort of parent would store live ammuntion somewhere a teenager could get hold of it. Maybe it's the father that needs the punishment. I suspect if that had happened here he would at least have been charged with wasting police time. I realise that things are very different in the US but I'm also wondering what the police are doing acting as social workers. Much as I distrust these people myself, they are the professionals.

[Politically Incorrect]

I've already discovered highly personal details of forum members, most of whom I regard as friends, that I would rather not have known.

We're bonding  ;D

[Deputy]

Like I said, I still feel to that day that the father was a flake. I don't think he did anything about his son lying not only to him, but wasting about $2,500-5,000 in tax dollars.


(Yes, I said $5,000 - Starting EMT and F&R is expensive - not to mention them being on the scene for about half an hour, as well as two WCSO units on scene for 3-4 hours. In this occupation, everything is expensive.)

The female, however, I felt comfortable that the parents cared about the daughter and wanted only the best for her - no matter the consequences it would take to get her there.

Again, there is no magic discipline that will work with every child. Each child is different.

[Deputy]

[quote]
& if it's OK to hit a child - why not hit old folk?

[Scottler]

And by that age, they should know what is acceptable behavior.

[Hagar]

Unfortunately from what I read, abuse of old folk in "care" homes is all too common nowadays, possibly as serious as child abuse. These people are often frail, senile & unable to defend themselves. It's no joking matter. It's also becoming more common to read about elderly people being beaten up in their own homes by young burglars. In fact burglars is too good a name for them. These are the scum that lack of discipline produces. I can only think that they never knew their own grandparents. If they did they certainly have no respect for them.

[jordonj]

Unfortunately from what I read, abuse of old folk in "care" homes is all too common nowadays, possibly as serious as child abuse. These people are often frail, senile & unable to defend themselves.

You're from the UK...yes?

Don't get me wrong...I certainly don't condone abuse, but if you were ever to work in a nursing home (what we call them in the US), and you thought that some resident with Alzheimers was just a harmless little old lady, you would be in for a rude shock!

Their families often put them in home for a reason.  Take my grandmother for a case-in-point.  She lived over 3 hours away.  Her children took turns watching her for as long as they could.  But finally, they had to move here up here.  She didn't like that at all and would go into screaming fits about wanting to go home.  They had to remove all the knobs from the stove so she wouldn't turn it on and start a fire (she would forget she had turned it on), they had to hide all the snacks,  get her cigarettes away from her (she would fall asleep with them), and all kinds of things.  As often happens, she lost the ability to tell the difference between day and night and consequently became a night-wanderer (the kids watching here often did not get much sleep.)  When she broke her hip, they had to put her in a home (neither one could lift her).

And guess what?  They were lucky!  It's not uncommon for people with Alzheimers and other Dementias to become mean and violent.  In cases where a home cargiver (usually a child of the elderly person) becomes abusive, it's not because they're ungateful "scum of the earth"...it's because they have an extremly difficult elderly parent to care for and have been overstressed and pushed to the edge.

Oh and the people who work in nursing homes are often paid little more than minimum wage.  Their jobs have a higher rate of on-the-job injury than even construction and is more thankless than being a teacher (at least in the US).  I tried that profession and left in a hurry.  One aide almost got her arm broken by a violent dementia resident (nothing happened to him)...I got scratched, spat on, bitten, had relatives yelling at me (I had over 30 people to care for some days), and had to clean up fingerpainting.

Oh and when I say a resident "fingerpaints", I don't mean they use "paint"!  Tell me they didn't do it to make trouble, and I'll hand you the washrag to clean them up!

One lady would tell you to hold out your hand...she had a surprise for you (guess what it was, I dare you!)  Whenever they served hamburgers, she would remove the meat patty and send one of her "surprises" back between the buns...they eventually stopped giving her buns with her burgers because of this.

I can't tell you the number of times we had to hold down a violent one, or get a man out of a woman's bed.

And if the home found themselves shorthanded one night, they would tell the aides they had to stay for the next shift...and they would loose their jobs if they refused (some of them were single parents).   Nurse Aides are the ones who change the diapers, feed the infirm, and provide front-line care to those people...who were often put there because their famlies could not care for them.  If a person becomes violent, home-health care agencies won't send people, and Adult Foster-Care won't admit them (or insist that they leave).  Nurse Aides are overworked, overstressed, and often had vacation time denied because the home was short-handed (common to several nursing homes).  Again, I don't condone abuse, but is it any wonder the Nurse Aides become abusive?

It's a vicious cycle for which there are few easy answers...

And on that note:

"Shoot the lawyers! More skin on HBO! L.H. Puttgrass signing off and heading for the tub!"

[Hagar]

You're from the UK...yes?

Yes, I'm from the UK although I don't see the relevance. If it's happening here it's almost certainly happening elsewhere - including the US. I know all about those unfortunate Alzheimer sufferers as I've experienced it at first hand. Being struck down by this terrible affliction myself is one of my biggest fears as I approach my dotage. Please read this before making any judgments. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3639421.stm

'Half a million' elderly abused

As many as half a million elderly people may be being abused, a House of Commons report says.
An inquiry found two-thirds of the cases of abuse occur in people's own homes.

It took the form of sexual, physical and financial abuse, neglect and over-medication, the Commons Health Committee said.

I can find you plenty more like this. Some victims have been in their 90s & some later died from their injuries. http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/24/24176_girl_gang_beat_up_woman_80.html

Girl gang beat up woman, 80
by Seb Ramsay
AN 80-year-old woman was brutally beaten to the ground with her own walking stick by a gang of teenage girls.

The pensioner, who had just recovered from a hip operation, was attacked while she walked along Copson Street in Didsbury at around 1.15pm on Saturday after she refused to give the three girls money.

The woman, who has not been named, was punched in the face by one of the group before the same girl grabbed her stick and hit her across the knees until she fell over.

This is a recent trend & becoming more common. Even the worst criminals in my young days would never have sunk this low.

[eno]

Even the worst criminals in my young days would never have sunk this low.

Unfortunately they would ........ the difference being it wasn't as widely reported. We live in a media fueled world and that means that stuff that, even 10 years ago, would have been left to the local papers becomes national news.  I don't think that abuse of any sort is any more or less than it was years ago, I just think that we find out about a higher percentage of it.

[Hagar]

I don't think that abuse of any sort is any more or less than it was years ago, I just think that we find out about a higher percentage of it.

I've heard this said before & often wonder if it is in fact true. The government is very fond of trolling out these statements & I have no way of proving them wrong. I have no facts or statistics to back it up but I do know that until recently nobody would ever have thought of beating up an elderly person on the street in broad daylight, just for the sake of it. Not only that but passers-by often stand by & watch, frightened to interfere in case they're arrested for assault for daring to touch these scum. The people doing this are children, mostly teenagers although some are even younger.  Many of them are too young to be held accountable for their actions. They are above the law & cannot be punished which they are only too well aware of & they take full advantage of it. They have apparently been brought up with no moral standards or any idea of respect for themselves or others. I can't think of any other explanation.

I'm too tired to argue but I'm convinced that this is due to liberal laws & the softly-softly approach to almost anything you can think of. For society to work there have to be rules & children should be brought up to respect & obey those rules. Those children will hopefully grow up to be responsible adults & teach their own children the same values. This is how it always worked until recently. The alternative is anarchy. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about that.

[jordonj]

Yes, I'm from the UK although I don't see the relevance.

I don't know how laws over there are different concerning the elderly and their care over in the UK...

Remember, I was not talking about gangs...I was talking about the cycle of the caregivers...it is sometimes a simple issue, but rarely is it so...

An interesting thing though is that in Nursing homes (at least  here in the US), most cases of abuse are one resident assualting another resident.  It often happens when their medications are being reviewed:  What they do is cut back on the dosage and you guessed it...the person gets violent!

I did take a look at that article you linked to Hagar, and I do agree that those cases are widespread, but I also agree with Eno's contention that in the past they did happen, and were just not reported.

I also did not mean to belittle your concerns...I just try to show the "rest of the story".