Discipline

[Deputy]

[quote]

A dangerous line to walk, Deputy, especially given your line of work.

[eno]

OK I'm going to give you an example of how the so called "Professional" child care agencies deal with indicipline.

A child whom I was working with pulled a knife on one of his carers. 5 other carers were within arms reach of the child  and ignored the repeated requests of the carer who had the knife held under her nose  A. for help and B. for the child to put down the knife.

After sitting for a minute or so watching the situation develop I approached the child and asked him more forcefully to put the knife down. The child ignored me and continued to threaten the carer.

I disarmed the child but in the process broke his wrist.

Is this beyond reasonable force? .... should it be considered abuse?... should this child have been talked into such a state that he would attack the carer?

In the inquiry that took place later it turned out that one of the carers was an ex  Police officer and he backed me.
I was completely exhonerated and continued to work with the children.

I asked the guy who backed me why none the other carers had reacted to the situation. It turned out that they were bound by regulations and could not touch the child unless he injured either himself or someone else. At this point they would have been able to react and maybe cause more injury restraining the child.

Now tell me that a short sharp slap on the back of the legs as a 3 year old  is abusive and over the top.
If the child whom I disarmed  had had this as a toddler he may have thought differently about pulling the knife or even carrying it.

[Romulus111VADT]

OK ........ but there's times when it seems to be getting a little personal.

Why would you take my postings personally? I have been talking about my own experiences and experiences of others as reported by the news. I don't believe I've singled out anyone in particular. If it has been perceived that way, I apologize.

All I am trying to show is that w/o discipline, whether it is child or adult. This world will get allot worse with the lawless nature that the lack of discipline will create. We all have rules we must follow. Whether legal or moral are the reasons we follow these rules matters not. As long as discipline is maintained. This is why people like the Deputy have to go out and face danger every time they go to work. Because their are those who just don't get it and because of this lack of discipline. They force parents, police, judges and jails to make them understand that they cannot do what they want w/o regard for the consequences. As the old say goes, "You do the crime, you do the time". So if we fail as parents to do our jobs, then the law will do it for us. When the child is sitting in jail and looking at a very long time to think about it. Which would you call child abuse, the fact that you disciplined your child and gave them moral values that make them follow the rules or sending them out into an unforgiving world unprepared so they either end up dead or in jail?

[eno]

That was not aimed at you Romulus. It was a general comment intended to mean that some comments were getting a little to aggressive.

[Deputy]

I disarmed the child but in the process broke his wrist.

Is this beyond reasonable force?

Of course not. In my occupation, this would be the point where we'd be putting the child at gunpoint. Breaking a wrist, if thats what it takes to remove the danger to another's (or even his/her own) life is a lot better than what we'd have done. Some law enforcement agencies now carry a LTL (Less-than-lethal) device called a taser. What it does, is shoots two probed darts into the skin and releasing large voltage charges disabling the body's ability to have communication between the nerves. It is totally safe and harmless, with no permenently lasting effects, it doesn't disrupt pacemakers or other electronic body parts. Now that you know what a taser is.....

A taser would be deployed and likely used in a situation such as listed above if it was available.


Where you cannot use a taser or a firearm, bodily force is used. In my opinion, you did what was right, although harming the child, what was right. I applaud you for saving a life.

[Romulus111VADT]

That was not aimed at you Romulus. It was a general comment intended to mean that some comments were getting a little to aggressive.

No problemo.....

[Deputy]

Why would you take my postings personally? I have been talking about my own experiences and experiences of others as reported by the news. I don't believe I've singled out anyone in particular. If it has been perceived that way, I apologize.

All I am trying to show is that w/o discipline, whether it is child or adult. This world will get allot worse with the lawless nature that the lack of discipline will create. We all have rules we must follow. Whether legal or moral are the reasons we follow these rules matters not. As long as discipline is maintained. This is why people like the Deputy have to go out and face danger every time they go to work. Because their are those who just don't get it and because of this lack of discipline. They force parents, police, judges and jails to make them understand that they cannot do what they want w/o regard for the consequences. As the old say goes, "You do the crime, you do the time". So if we fail as parents to do our jobs, then the law will do it for us. When the child is sitting in jail and looking at a very long time to think about it. Which would you call child abuse, the fact that you disciplined your child and gave them moral values that make them follow the rules or sending them out into an unforgiving world unprepared so they either end up dead or in jail?

I don't feel like we're discussing whether or not children/adults need to be disciplined, but rather how.

Also thank you for realizing that "people like Deputy" (And Mav_316) put our lives on the line every day, to make a community safer.

[eno]

So if we fail as parents to do our jobs, then the law will do it for us. When the child is sitting in jail and looking at a very long time to think about it. Which would you call child abuse, the fact that you disciplined your child and gave them moral values that make them follow the rules or sending them out into an unforgiving world unprepared so they either end up dead or in jail?

Part of the problem is that so many parents think that it IS someone else's job to dicipline their children.

There has recently been a law passed here in the UK that allows the parents of children who persistantly play truant from school to be jailed. Several parents have already been jailed, one twice. I feel that this is the right way to go with persistant child offenders .... Punish the parents as well as the children  then they may take responcibility for their children's behaviour instead of blaming everyone else.

[Politically Incorrect]

Dread I'm sure you and your wife are fine parents and your children are obviously blessed as are you, but as mentioned earlier they won't be three long, it is the teenage years where most trouble really takes shape. And this all comes from how they "got away with it" in the past.
I can understand your feelings towards this debate but what bothers me is,

I can tell my children they're doing wrong with just a look.  I'll stand there and stare at them for about 30 seconds, then they'll get all sheepish and nervous

This I really can relate to, intimidation and instilling fear can be more hurtfull than a slap on the ass, my father used mind abuse (for lack of a better term)  on me often and too this day I can remember the fear.  The "look" can be a harmfull thing.
So as far as spanking and the "look" I really see no differance.

[Wing Nut]

It's not a matter of instilling fear.

[Politically Incorrect]

That deserves a congrats!

You are a very fortunate parent, no doubt about it, and I respect your patience. This is where I agree with you 100%

It is the parents without patience and without common sense that take the spanking to the abuse stage.
I agree that many of the rotten egg kids come from parents that don't deserve to be parents.

But one must remember that not all children are as well behaved as yours (some are just born evil) and not all parents can build a trust like you share with yours, some children are just not that way. So where do you turn when the sit down talks, the no TV or time outs just don't work.
One idea send them to military school or where ever it was my mom always told me I would go. But send them away and then they will hold that against you
Parents are in a no win situation.

But you have a understanding with your children, they know you are the boss, but unfortanately that isn't the case with many families.

edit: Dread I appologise for using the term "mind abuse" that is a strong word and I wasn't saying that this is what I thought you were doing, it is the only word I could thing of.

[Wing Nut]

You know what else is interesting?  That rise in violent acts commited by young people today seems to run right along side the proliferation of video games.   When video games first came out there were no ultra-violent game like GTA or MOH around.  It's only in the past 10-15 years crap like that has been allowed and oddly enough, it's the same age group, huh?

Don't give me this 'It's the parents ducking responsibility' crap, because it's not all the parent's fault here...

[eno]

You know what else is interesting?  That rise in violent acts commited by young people today seems to run right along side the proliferation of video games.   When video games first came out there were no ultra-violent game like GTA or MOH around.  It's only in the past 10-15 years crap like that has been allowed and oddly enough, it's the same age group, huh?

Don't give me this 'It's the parents ducking responsibility' crap, because it's not all the parent's fault here...

Who are the first people to impart morals and standards to children... The PARENTS. So in most cases the parents can be held completely resopnsible for their childrens behaviour especially those children under the age of criminal responsibility (Here in the UK that is  10).  You can't blame video games who should check the video games that the kids buy ... Their PARENTS. I hear of so many cases of kids being goomed for abuse online... the child meets the abuser ..... What where the PARENTS doing when the child was being groomed probably sat downstairs watching TV. As a parent you cant watch kids 24/7 but in the times when they are in your care you should be imparting what the boundaries are.

Children over the age of 10 should have been taught by their parents what is right and wrong and should be in a position to take some responsibility for their own actions.

[Romulus111VADT]

[quote]You know what else is interesting?

[Woodlouse2002]

Dread, you are still failing to see the difference between a slap on the arse and beating a child black and blue. One makes them stop and think about what they've done. The other is likely to knock them off the rails.

At the age of 16 your son was not going to gain anything from being smacked. And being beaten would undoubtably have turned him into the insolent youth he was before he came to live with you. When he realised that you wern't going to beat him of course he perked up. At his age respect between parent and child is important, and when he realised he wasn't going to be punished for nothing he would respect that and be more agreeable.

However that is not the age group we are talking about. We're discussing how, if a small child (i.e. 5 or under) is seriously misbehaving, a slap on the arse is warrented to make them realise they're doing wrong.

Smacking teenagers will never accomplish anything. I know that if I was hit for not doing something I would feel less inclined to do it afterwards than before. However, a slap on the behind of a toddler might just be whats needed for them to sit up and think that they might just be doing something wrong.