Discipline

[eno]

Her mother has smacked her .........  and for good reason.
When Hannah gets out of control she doesn't respond to any of my attempts to calm her down, I back off and leave her  Mother to deal with her.
As for the second statement ..... she hasn't repeated the behaviour that lead to her last smack and therefore hasn't had to be disciplined in that way since.
 Both the kids implicitly trust  myself, their mother and their natural father who still has input into their life's. We provide everything for them and will do for the rest of our natural lives as neither of them will ever be self sufficiant.


I think that ultimately each child responds differently and what works with one child will not work with another.

[Wing Nut]

I think that's a cop out...  ::)

[Omag 2.0]

I think Eno pointed out one very important thing. As a punishment or way to learn his son what's wrong, they use a snap on the hand.

Sure anyone can see this is no "violence" towards the kid. It's simply a last resort to emphasize they are doing wrong. I as a child got me some spanks on the tush whenever i was really, really bad. It calmed me down and i never saw it as violence or abuse.

There is a big difference in giving a little spank or beating a child up. Nowadays i see lots of children behaving like little dictators,terrorising there parent and beeing really rude. Most parent react with words, but they miss every effect. Setting the kid straith firmely could do the trick, if only it weren't so not-done lately. I do understand there is a fine line between correcting a child like that and taking it some steps further...

One thing i do know is that the generations that came after me at school deteriorated in the discipline-area. More and more youngsters have lots of trouble with authority and discipline and seem to loose the ability to work in a group. Perhaps a little stricter discipline at the start could have kept them in line, without beeing abused...

Guess those are my 2 cents...

[Romulus111VADT]

Ever since the government has decided to take away parental rights of Discipline this is what we've accomplished-

Santee, Calif. March 5, 2001
A 15-year-old, Charles Andrew Williams, allegedly using a .22-caliber revolver, slays two students and wounds 13 others at Santana High School.

Lake Worth, Fla. May 26, 2000
A 13-year-old, Nathaniel Brazill, fatally shoots a teacher on the last day of classes.

Mount Morris Township, Mich. Feb. 29, 2000
A 6-year-old boy kills a classmate in their first grade classroom. Local congressman  James A. Barcia (D) voted against gun restrictions 10 out of 11 times.

Fort Gibson, Okla. Dec. 6, 1999
A 13-year-old, Seth Trickey, wounds four students at a farming community middle school 50 miles southeast of Tulsa. .

Deming, N.M. Nov. 20, 1999
A 13-year-old, Victor Cordova Jr.,  dressed in camouflage,  shoots a 13-year-old female student in the head, killing her. .

Conyers, Ga. May 20, 1999
A 15-year-old sophomore, T.J. Solomon, opens fire in Heritage High School, and wounds six classmates.  

Littleton, Colo. April 20, 1999
An 18-year-old, Eric Harris, and a 17-year-old, Dylan Klebold, heavily armed and clad in black trench coats, kill 12 students and a teacher at Columbine High School and injure 23, then turn their weapons on themselves.  

Fayetteville, Tenn. May 19, 1998
An 18-year-old, Jacob Davis, opens fire in the parking lot of his high school, killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Davis was an honor student who was due to graduate three days later.

Edinboro, Pa. April 24, 1998
A 14-year-old, Andrew Wurst, slays a teacher and wounds three at a school dance.  

Jonesboro, Ark. March 24, 1998
A 13-year-old, Mitchell Johnson, and an 11-year-old, Andrew Golden, set off a fire alarm at Westside Middle School, then mow down students and teachers as they pour from classrooms. Four female students and a teacher are killed.  

Stamps, Ark. Dec. 15, 1997
A 14-year-old, Joseph Todd, launches a sniper attack outside a high school, wounding two students.

Paducah, Ky. Dec. 1, 1997
A 14-year-old, Michael Carneal, shoots eight students attending a prayer meeting in his high school; three die.  

Pearl, Miss. Oct. 1, 1997
A 16-year-old, Luke Woodham, kills two and wounds seven in the school cafeteria.  

Bethel, Alaska Feb. 19, 1997
A 16-year-old, Evan Ramsey, having previously made several threats, shoots and kills his school principal and a classmate.

Moses Lake, Wash. Feb. 2, 1996
A 14-year-old, Barry Loukaitas, slays his teacher, fatally wounds two teen-age boys and wounds a girl.

Olivehurst, Calif. May 1, 1992
A 20-year-old, Eric Houston, apparently seeking revenge for a failing grade, goes on a rampage at his former high school, killing four and wounding 10.

Hell, take away all parental rights. Might as well remove parents from the equation all together. Just add the basic ingredients to a test tube, shake well and wait until done. Then let the government raise the children, this should remove allot of problems. Of course the problems it will create are going to be unimaginable. But that has never stopped the government before, now has it?

[ATI_7500]

More amazingly,all of these incidents are involving guns...

[Wing Nut]

Look, you guys are all bloaming the kids for your own lack of ability to handle them.  If you call customer servie at MS and act like a jerk, you will get poor service.  If you call MS and are cool with them, they will be cool with you.  It's the same way with kids.  If you are patient and learn from them as much as you teach them, if you take time to explain things instead of hitting, they will be more responsive to you and what you say, instead of the opposite.  If you hit a child, then that child is more likely to act out than if you don't.  Quit blaming the kids and look to yourselves!

Romulus, you could just as easily blame those violent incidents on video games, or violent TV more appropriately than not spanking a child!

[Romulus111VADT]

You will please note that I was busting on the government. Before the government went wild with it's child abuse laws. We would fist fight to settle difference. Oh, there was an occasional coward that would pull a knife. But since the government has over regulated it's abuse laws many parents are actually terrified to discipline their children for fear of being arrested. This has had the effect of now making parents responsible for an out of control child. So now parents are faced with going to jail either way and this is when abuse starts. Most figure if they are going to jail, there might as well be a good reason for it. Then we have the tragedy of parents killing their children.

In my day, yes there was child abuse, I know from experience. But unless it was doing bodily harm or worse. Most people wouldn't think much of it. Like for example an out of control child in a store in my day would have gotten his butt paddled and taken to the car. Now parents are scared to death to do anything and the child just goes on to do worse because he has learned that mom and dad are powerless. Then this is taken into the schools and children die.

I've actually heard a child threaten to call the police on a parent that was just fussing with them. The child threatened to get them for mental torture and the parent just backed off. So even the not hitting parents are in for trouble.

For the record, I can count on one hand the amount of times I ever "popped" my children on the butt open handed to get their attention. I NEVER used a belt or any other weapon to discipline them. I too could normally just look at them and they would mind me. I DO NOT condone any form of child abuse. But there are times when a pop on the butt is warranted.

[Scottler]

I'm so glad Romulus pointed out what I was just about to point out myself...

If you look at the time that it became "wrong" to spank your child, you're looking at about 15-20 years ago.  Now look at the kids that are doing the things Romulus mentioned...how old are they?  That's right, the older ones are in their late teens.  I will never believe this to be coincidence.

As for this being a result of television, movies or music....why is it we never see or hear about kids who emulate the positive things they see or hear through the media?

Don't get me wrong, the content of movies and film has changed dramatically, and I think that's a shame in itself, but that's for another thread.

You are that child's conduit to life, and you would betray them by causing them pain?

Which is more of a betrayal?  Spanking them, or letting them burn their hand on the stove?

[Romulus111VADT]

Another horrible fact is that many well adjusted, well educated, well behaved children also can tend to hide inner turmoil. I have seen parents that discipline a child to the extreme (me for example), that are loved and respected despite the abuse.

Then there are the parents that discipline their children within the moral norm and wake up staring down the barrel of a gun. Many parents have been murdered by their children for simply refusing to give them $150.00 for a pair of tennis shoes. Many Grandparents have been murdered by their grandchildren for refusing to give them money. In all these circumstances the lack of proper discipline has been given as the reason for the children killing their parents.

The children openly admitted that their parents weren't tough enough on them and that the lack of corporal punishment may have deterred them from trying. When the child has no fear of having to pay the consequences for their actions due to their parents hands being tied and the fact that they are rarely ever jailed for allot of the wrong they do, most children nowadays will as the old say goes, "give them and inch and they take a mile".

[Wing Nut]

Romulus, you are SO generalizing right now...

[eno]

I think it's time for this thread to be locked .... We should all agree to differ.

I can see all sides of the arguement and I have also had some insite to the side of the abused child through my fathers experiences and the stories of those here.

How a parent chastises a child is totally up to them. When this chastisement becomes abusive and dangerous to the child then it has to be stopped.

[Scottler]

I don't see a need for it to be locked....this is a healthy and mature discussion.  It's not at all disruptive.  Locking something because we disagree is a bit extreme.

Everyone here has pretty much agreed that spanking your child and just beating them to a bloody pulp is completely different...interesting side note though, look at the relationship between those who oppose spanking and those who admit to being abused.  THAT is the underlying story here, IMO.

[Deputy]

[quote]Ever since the government has decided to take away parental rights of Discipline this is what we've accomplished-

Santee, Calif. March 5, 2001
A 15-year-old, Charles Andrew Williams, allegedly using a .22-caliber revolver, slays two students and wounds 13 others at Santana High School.

Lake Worth, Fla. May 26, 2000
A 13-year-old, Nathaniel Brazill, fatally shoots a teacher on the last day of classes.

[glb]Mount Morris Township, Mich. Feb. 29, 2000
A 6-year-old boy kills a classmate in their first grade classroom. Local congressman

[eno]

I don't see a need for it to be locked....this is a healthy and mature discussion.  It's not at all disruptive.  Locking something because we disagree is a bit extreme.

Everyone here has pretty much agreed that spanking your child and just beating them to a bloody pulp is completely different...interesting side note though, look at the relationship between those who oppose spanking and those who admit to being abused.  THAT is the underlying story here, IMO.

OK ........ but there's times when it seems to be getting a little personal.

[Scottler]

My only concern with spanking children is that you may give them the idea that they can and should punish others for other's wrongdoing.

A dangerous line to walk, Deputy, especially given your line of work.  I mean, that's what you do, it's what you get paid for.

Without punishing others for their wrongdoings, are we not completely alienating the criminal justice system in its entirety?