IF USSR beat America to the moon..

[Loafing Smurf]

Its a question I have a hard time to answer. But if the USSR made it to the moon before America, it would have been a disgrace. Particularly Kennedy solidly saying that they will put a man on the moon before the end of the decade.

But a mission to Mars would just be too difficult. I think that it would be suggested in the White House and then NASA would say its not possible. Not possible in the 60s at least.

[Rifleman]

Kennedy, didn't really "solidly say" that the US would put a man on the moon, but rather presented the challenge to the country to acheive the objective,.....
in a manner somewhat like this............

"First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth. No single space project in this period will be more impressive to mankind, or more important for the long-range exploration of space; and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish."

[Hagar]

To understand this you should take the political situation of the time into account. These were the days of the Cold War when the USSR was seen as the main threat to world peace. They had already launched the first communications satellite - Sputnik in 1957. This was the reason for the formation of NASA on October 1, 1958.

In the wake of Sputnik in 1957, President Dwight D. Eisenhower responded to the Soviet challenge and to public concern and excitement by reorganizing the American space effort. One step was to create a new government agency to conduct civilian space exploration. In 1958 congress established the new agency-the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA). The armed services retained control of separate military space programs.

Prior to the creation of NASA, ongoing studies in aeronautics and space science were conducted under the auspices of the Department of Defense's Advanced Research Project Agency, the Naval Research Laboratory, the Army Ballistic Missile Agency, and the National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics. NASA acquired many scientific and technical programs from these agencies after its formation.

The new agency was allowed to set its own goals. The immediate goals were

As a new enterprise, space exploration confronted an array of difficult scientific and technical problems. Three challenges stood out: 1) developing rockets that could carry machines and humans into space; 2) learning about the space environment; and 3) taking the first steps toward human exploration.

Even with Project Mercury in its infancy, NASA managers contemplated projects to follow its completion. They realized that a large booster rocket would be necessary for heavy payloads and an eventual Moon mission.

The Army Ballistic Missile Agency (ABMA), in Huntsville, Ala., under the technical direction of Wernher von Braun (1912-1977), was already working on a new large rocket, the Saturn. In July 1960, the Department of Defense transferred the ABMA and its large booster projects to NASA. This formed the basis for the George C. Marshall Space Flight Center.

This transfer reflected President Eisenhower's policy that civilian and military space programs should be separately managed, but work closely together.

On April 12, 1961, cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin successfully orbited the Earth & returned safely. Another first for the Soviet Union. At this time they were thought to be at least 10 years ahead of the USA.

President John F. Kennedy had assumed office in January 1961.

Immediately after Gagarin's flight, President Kennedy wanted to know what the United States could do in space to take the lead from the Soviets. Vice President Lyndon Johnson polled leaders in NASA, industry, and the military. He reported that "with a strong effort" the United States "could conceivably" beat the Soviets in sending a man around the Moon or landing a man on the Moon. As neither nation yet had a rocket powerful enough for such a mission, the race to the Moon was a contest that the United States would not be starting at a disadvantage.

This quote is from his speech to Congress on May 25, 1961.

"...if we are to win the battle that is now going on around the world between freedom and tyranny, the dramatic achievements in space which occurred in recent weeks should have made clear to all of us, as did Sputnik in 1957, the impact of this adventure on the minds of men everywhere... Now it is time to take longer strides-time for this nation to take a clearly leading role in space achievement, which in many ways may hold the key to our future on Earth. ...we have never made the national decisions or marshaled the national resources required for such leadership. We have never specified long-range goals on an urgent time schedule... Space is open to us now; and our eagerness to share its meaning is not governed by the efforts of others. We go into space because whatever mankind must undertake, free men must fully share...

I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely to the Earth. No single space project...will be more exciting, or more impressive to mankind, or more important...and none will be so difficult or expensive to accomplish...".
President John F. Kennedy, May 1961

I have always believed that the space programs of both countries were & still are more military than scientific. No country would be prepared to spend the vast amount of time, resources & money purely on scientific research. This was always the prime objective of the Soviet government & certainly how the US government saw it.

Soviet space effort 10 years ahead of U.S., report asserts
By NICHOLAS C. CHRISS
Copyright 1987 Houston Chronicle
The Soviet Union has used the achievements and successes of its manned space flight program to "accelerate its drive to achieve military superiority in space," a new Pentagon study says.

As a result, according to the study - entitled "The Soviet Space Challenge" - the Soviets have come "dangerously close" to achieving a goal of controlling space for military purposes.

The study quotes a sentence from the "Dictionary of Basic Military Terms, USSR, 1965," which states: "Mastery of Space is an Important Prerequisite for Achieving Victory in War."

It goes on to state: "Most of the Soviet space program is not generally made public. As this publication documents, the greatest part of the Soviets' effort in space is dedicated to their military objectives.

"Because the Western democracies, particularly the United States, have directed a large part of their space resources and technology toward other goals, and some items have lacked clear goals, we have allowed the Soviet Union to come dangerously close to achieving its miliary objectives in space. The Soviets have methodically designed their space systems to fight a war in space."

The Soviet space program is the world's "most extensive, robust and dynamic space program in the world today," with expenditures of $80 billion during the last decade, the study said.

At the time of Apollo 11 the USSR had a successful unmanned moon exploration program under way.

Luna was a series of 24 lunar probes launched by the former USSR. 11 were successful and achievements of the series were great: The first man made object to reach another planetary body (Luna 2, 1959). The first pictures sent back of the far side of the Moon (Luna 3, 1959). The first probe to soft land on another planetary body (Luna 9, 1966). The first probe to orbit another planetary body (Luna 10, 1966). The first soil return to Earth from another planetary body (Luna 16, 1970). The first Lunar rover Lunokhod (unmanned) (Luna 17, 1970).

This shows the importance to the US (& the whole western world) of putting a man on the moon & explains my sometimes cynical views on the subject. Failure was not an option. Whether it was actually successful or not is irrelevant. The USSR certainly believed it was & never seriously attempted a manned moon project of their own.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/attm/nojs/fs.html

PS. I don't believe that space technology was sufficiently advanced for either country to contemplate a Mars mission in 1969. The strategic advantage of this is debatable.

[Ivan]

USSR to the moon:
Get a Soyus, weld the dampers of a Venera on the bottom, and send it up together with another Soyus on a HUGE rocket (N-1).

After thye americans got the moon, they continued with other things (Space station, Venera landers) where the americans didn't succeed in.

If the USSR did beat the americans to the moon...
Wasn't there someone wo said that the USA won't accept living under a 'red moon'?

[ATI_7500]

interesting stuff there,hagar,but there were far more soviet "firsts":

-first animal (dog,sputnik 2)
-first woman (valentina tereshkova)
-first one to have more than one man in space (forgot the mission and year)

all i can say to that: GO,RUSSIA(USSR)! lol...

[Ivan]

Let's add some more to that list:
- First space station
- Longest stay in space (the guy was launched in the USSR, and returned in Russia)
- Most powerful rocket (Energia)
- First landings on land
- First to land on Venus
- First wheeled vehicle on the moon
- First landing on backside of the moon

[Hagar]

interesting stuff there,hagar,but there were far more soviet "firsts":

Whatever the achievements of either country the important issue to NASA, the USA & the western world was to put a man on the moon before the USSR. This was the prime objective & in that they succeeded, despite the USSR having a head start. I'm no advocate of space exploration but I think this deserves some credit.

To put things in perspective this is the difference in cost from a Pentagon report dated November 1987.

The Soviet space program is the world's "most extensive, robust and dynamic space program in the world today," with expenditures of $80 billion during the last decade, the study said.

In comparison, the U.S. Apollo space effort, which put 12 men on the moon, cost $25.4 billion and lasted from 1967 to 1972, said Johnson Space Center spokesman Terry White.

http://www.chron.com/content/interactive/space/missions/mir/news/1987/19871122.html

In the end it all comes down to the money, time & effort expended on the projects. German space research was far ahead of any other country in the world during WWII. They had already developed the first operational ballistic missile (V2). Werner von Braun & other German rocket scientists were developing intercontinental ballistic missiles to attack NYC & other US cities, possibly using nuclear warheads, right up till the end of the war. These scientists were snapped up by the US & USSR after WWII ended. It's often been said that the "Space Race" was between the German scientists working for either side.

[ATI_7500]

probably.
but i wonder why the germans were so advanced concerning the development of new technologies till '45...maybe this has got something to do with the economical boom in the 1850s and the 1900s...

[Hagar]

probably.
but i wonder why the germans were so advanced concerning the development of new technologies till '45...maybe this has got something to do with the economical boom in the 1850s and the 1900s...

Rocket enthusiasts had been experimenting in different countries for many years without being taken seriously. Most of them were thought of as harmless cranks. I believe the main reason for the rapid German advances in both aviation & space research during WWII was due to Hitler's personal encouragement of the latest technology. These were to be his V weapons to turn the tide of events. In this he almost succeeded.

PS. Werner von Braun voluntarily surrendered to US troops rather than be captured by the Soviets. In film clips I've seen he looks positively pleased with himself. I wonder if history would have been different if the Russians had got him first.

By the beginning of 1945, it was obvious to von Braun that Germany would not achieve victory against the Allies, and he began planning for the postwar era.

Before the Allied capture of the V-2 rocket complex, von Braun engineered the surrender of 500 of his top rocket scientists, along with plans and test vehicles, to the Americans.
.............

In 1960, his rocket development center transferred from the army to the newly established NASA and received a mandate to build the giant Saturn rockets. Accordingly, von Braun became director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center and the chief architect of the Saturn V launch vehicle, the superbooster that would propel Americans to the Moon.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/sputnik/braun.html

[elvis767]

The time period of our now presumes that it was the only period of human endeavour to seek space travel to the moon. But if you are a searcher of the historical recordings, you can

[RichieB16]

I don't think that we would have been able to make Mars landing in the late 60s.  An unmanned landing mission may have been possible but any attempt at a manned landing would have been far too dangerous due to the techonology of the time and the very little knowledge of Mars.  At the time, the only detailed images we had of Mars were those taken on the couple Mariner flyby missions we had done in the mid-60s.  An unmanned landing is a little more believeable since we had achieved this in 1976 with Viking 1 & 2.  So, I believe that had we chose to concertrate soley on a Mars unmanned landing mission (instead of a manned lunar landing), we could have achieved it sooner.

Of course, this is all assuming that the USSR had beaten us to the moon.  The only way this would have happed is if the US had another fatal accident following Apollo 1.  By July 1969, the Russian's wern't even close to a manned landing-they had yet to make a successiful launch of their N-1 rocket.  So, I believe that the Russians probably wouldn't have been able to make a manned landing until around 1973 because of the problems they were having with both the rocket and the capsule.

Longest stay in space (the guy was launched in the USSR, and returned in Russia)

Actually, the longest stay in space was accomplished by a cosmonaut that was launched after the fall of the USSR.  Dr. Valeri Polyakov was launced to the Mir station in January of 1994 and returned in March of 1995.  The mission lasted a record 437 Days.