Another Warning!

[Craig.]

I am so jealous of those in Europe.  All that culture, all that history, all the diversity packed into a relatively small area.  What an amazing place...  
If I were overseas I don't think I would ever travel to the US.  Unless I wanted to wittness over-indulgence in everything

Personally i have seen enough of europe, although maybe not enough to make any realistic comments but i saw enough to say i didnt fit in there.
As for the UK seen alot of it, only northern ireland i havent been to, southern ireland havent been to but not part of the UK:) and if you get the right place where you feel at home its cool and you really have no reason to leave.
However i find America a fascinating country It has just about everything a person could want without having to leave the country, from deserts to mountains, marshlands to plains. And although my experiances are with mainly the southern population that was enough to say i felt like i belonged there. may not be as much history but there is something else about it. All a matter of personal tastes i suppose:) Then again if i were living back home in middle wallop i prob wouldnt want to leave there either

[xwing]

The grass is always greener on the other side I guess.

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]
Some have made very good points about terrorists, but remember, these people are mostly SUICIDAL, FANATICAL, MANIACS that will die or kill to prove a point.

[Hagar]

Home is where the heart is. My heart is right here, not far from the place I was born & where I've lived all my life. I've visited some of the most beautiful places on Earth but it always takes my breath away when I catch my first sight of those rolling Sussex Downs. They're not mountains by any stretch of the imagination but it's home & I'm always glad to get back.

[Politically Incorrect]

A terrorist with out brains would make a crap terrorist. The terrorists we are fighting today are highly intelligent. To carry out a stunt like 9/11 takes years of planning and working out and dimwits simply can't do that. Succesful terrorists have intelligence. With out it they couldn't terrorise effectively. Just look at the past terrorist organsations. The IRA nearly wiped out the entire cabinate with Mrs Thatcher at one point. Black september stole an olympic team. Hell, the Black Hand assassinated Arch duke Ferdinand and started WWI. Not to mention Al Qaeda who's head shed is probably better educated than many people in most western governments (england included). Basically, all terrorists are intelligent. And another thing, NEVER underestimate your enemy.

TRUE!

[BFMF]

Basically, all terrorists are intelligent. And another thing, NEVER underestimate your enemy.

True. A smart enemy will hit you where you think you're safe

[xwing]

WOW--

Once again our opinions could not differ more on this.

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

When I say "terrorist",

[xwing]

As far as 9/11 goes,

[Craig.]

like i said before the 9/11 attacks were not just a case of them rushing the cockpit and taking over the planes. They made sure to flood first class with mace for one to stop any form of takeover by passengers. This wasnt as simple as people like to think, they went to alot of trouble to get this job done. Sadly the heroics of passengers on the flights trying to take the planes back didnt happen like some people want to believe

[Hagar]

[quote]They do not have the needed intellegence to organize themselves well enough to make a true religious or political stand or statement.

[xwing]

Well, you can't argue with that!!
Hagar you sound like the voice of reason and level headedness...Now THAT scares me

[xwing]

I know i said "you cant argue with that", but...here I go:

And I promise I am done with this topic after this, (no applause! ) it appears we are at that agree to dis-agree stage.

Once again (9/11) there was an unexpected terrorism attack.  
Never before has there been such extensive measures taken to find those responsible.  
THIS is why we went to war for ****** sakes!--oh yea, the WMDs.  Maybe they'll be found or maybe there are none.  (one thing for sure: if sadam did not have them, it would only have been a matter of time untill he did)  We went to war to fight terror and those responsible.

You are right, we will never be rid of the suicidal fanatic ready to strap a bomb on himself.  But, if we as a  civilization, go after those responsible for the large scale attacks with mass loss of life(sadams/bin ladens), this will start to make a difference--These "leaders" and "heros" are never willing to give up THEIR own lives, just their followers. (hmm..Sadam..he even had a pistol-what a wus!)  
It may take hundreds of years but, if we show them time and time and time again, that those responsible will pay,.  Who knows?

If you would have told me before the war that Sadam would be in a jail cell and his sons both dead from a firefight with solders,  I would not have believed it.  But Now I know we're even going to get Bin Laden(eventually)  Its amazing this was done--Technology has made most this possible and the advance and ever-widening gap of technology will make it easier in the future to do so again.

No matter what "grievances (short of holocaust proportions) you have,  attacks on innocent civilians is insane and needs to be dealt with accordingly.  Sadam was a hero to many-so much in fact he was able to sieze power.   He did this for a belief, a cause?! NO, he (as well as Bin Laden) are power mongers only interested in their own personnal gain.

"ordinary peole with genuine grievances"?--does this describe Sadam or Bin Laden?  The front line fighters?  I am pretty sure "intellegence" is almost a contradiction to "young" AND "idealistic".

It didnt sound like it but, I hope you didn't mean sit and round table with terrorists!!  I hope you meant that we do this before it gets to that level.
Once someone goes beyond that point (terrorism), you cant go have a "sit down" or this will open the flood gates--"hey--create an act of terror, then we'll sit and listen to you"?   I must have mis-interpretted.

Make love not war has usually been my motto,  but do we sit down and listen to these people who have tortured, raped, murdered?  Or do we make them pay for what they have done?

i'm so tired, this probably did not come out to well.
thank you all for your insight.

[Craig.]

As far as capturing Bin Laden. Soon, the US has inteligence i believe, they have already said they are going to start a new large scale campaign against specific targets in Afghanistan. They wouldnt be doing that without some sort of specific Intel, me thinks Saddam might be singing like a canary:)

[Hagar]

Hagar you sound like the voice of reason and level headedness...Now THAT scares me

I like to think so. I have no idea why that should scare you.

I'm not prepared to discuss the current conflict in Iraq. That would certainly get this thread deleted. However, since you brought them up I would like to comment on these points.

"ordinary peole with genuine grievances"?--does this describe Sadam or Bin Laden?

No. This was my precise point about "Unfortunately there are those who take advantage of their blind loyalty & dedication to their cause".

I am pretty sure "intellegence" is almost a contradiction to "young" AND "idealistic

Most young people are idealistic. There are many examples on this forum. This does not mean that they cannot also be intelligent.

[quote]It didnt sound like it but, I hope you didn't mean sit and round table with terrorists!!

[Woodlouse2002]

W4P, there are a couple of issues and lets say, inaccuracys that I would like to discuss.

oh yea, the WMDs.  Maybe they'll be found or maybe there are none.  (one thing for sure: if sadam did not have them, it would only have been a matter of time untill he did)  We went to war to fight terror and those responsible.

Saddam did have WMD's. How do we know? Because we bloody sold them to him!

These "leaders" and "heros" are never willing to give up THEIR own lives, just their followers.

Quite right. And why? Because they are needed to plan the attacks. If they die then they can't do any more planning. Its the same reason you don't find Generals fighting on the front line in war.

But Now I know we're even going to get Bin Laden(eventually)

Saddam Hussein evaded capture for eight months directly under the second largest concentration of US troops in Iraq. Osama Bin Laden literally has the world to hide in. So he could be in Asia, or south america, or maybe Russia. Bin Laden is much cleverer than Saddam. I would be very suprised if you catch bin laden.

but do we sit down and listen to these people who have tortured, raped, murdered?  Or do we make them pay for what they have done?  

We did this with Germany after WWI. And look what happened there. It sewed the seeds for Hitler and WWII to happen.

You are right, we will never be rid of the suicidal fanatic ready to strap a bomb on himself.  But, if we as a  civilization, go after those responsible for the large scale attacks with mass loss of life(sadams/bin ladens), this will start to make a difference--These "leaders" and "heros" are never willing to give up THEIR own lives, just their followers. (hmm..Sadam..he even had a pistol-what a wus!)  
It may take hundreds of years but, if we show them time and time and time again, that those responsible will pay,.  Who knows?

Please say you didn't mean this. Large scale attacks with massive loss of life will only make the situation worse. Look at Iraq now, barely a day goes by where US troops are not killed. And this isn't the Iraqi army still fighting. To stop terrorism you need to negotiate. However, I believe that America has gone to far and is too proud to negotiate with Bin Ladens mob. Or any other terrorist groups. I only hope that the 44th president is a little less gung-ho that ol' G Dubya.