Exaggeration!! tsk tsk tsk

[ozzy72]

I suppose, the fact that the majority of Pilots, certainly the British, were more often than not, members of the 'Gentlemen's Club', and consequently a degree of honour and trust would have been expected and taken for granted.  ;D

I have no idea about the 'class' in which the majority of German, Japanese or even Australian pilots belonged (as we really have no 'class system' - certainly not like that in Britain). But I assume the same would have applied in terms of honour and trust, when dealing with the claims of a Pilot about his success in battle.

I have no doubt that, at least in the majority of cases, the 'claimant' truely believed that there was at least a good chance they had prevailed. I suppose it's one of those things that there will never really be a 'definite' answer about.  ;D

[Hagar]

I'm sure that all combat pilots have their own sense of honour, duty & comradeship no matter which country they come from. The Germans & Japanese in particular have their own strict codes of honour. The class system might have been more apparent in the RAF than in any other service. The NCO pilots introduced to make up numbers during the BoB were excluded from the officers mess & not allowed to fraternise with the officers they flew alongside in battle. This caused bad feelings in some quarters as both they & the officers themselves lost out due to not taking part in the many informal disussions on tactics at mealtimes & other social gatherings. Rookie officer pilots objected to taking orders from their more experienced NCO comrades, often resulting in disaster during combat.

Some of these NCO pilots became the most experienced & the survivors often ended up being rapidly promoted. Some even led their own squadrons later in the war.

PS. The legendary James "Ginger" Lacey was one of these Sergeant Pilots. He ended up as a Squadron Leader. http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/lacey.htm
[quote]Sgt J.H.`Ginger` Lacey (RAF No. 134518 ) was of average height, slim build he was a qualified flying instructor. A Yorkshire man born at Whetherby on February the 1st, 1917 and died on the 30th of

[ozzy72]

As regards the Officer/Sgt Pilot issue.

I'm currently reading Geoffrey Wellum's "First Light" (thanks to my friend Ozzy), and at the beginning of his book, when he had completed 'initial' training in Tiger Moths as a 'civilian trainee' with the RAF, he attended the RAF FTS at Little Kissington, his instructor is a Sergeant (whom he immediately gains respect and admiration for, both as an instructor and person). He doesn't specifically mention any problems associated with Officers resenting having to take orders or instructions from an NCO, but this may be because he and his colleagues (although commissioned Officers by this stage) are still very young, inexperienced and simply, they need to learn how to fly.

I can see how, as the War progressed and older Officers found themselves in Operatioonal Squadrons, there would have been resentment at an NCO being in a position to 'teach them something'. But rank doesn't, and never has, been an indication of a fighting mans ability and experience, as many a Platoon Sergeant in Vietnam learnt!  ;)

He does account his first meeting with his 'Sergeant Instructor' whom he addresses as Sir. The Sergeant tells him he doesn't (not shouldn't, but DOESN"T) address him as Sir, but instead Flight Sergeant or simply 'Flight'. (But even when 'dressing Wellum down' the Sergeant refers to him as Sir - as in "Gee, Sir, you are useless, aren't you?")

It must have been a difficult situation for the NCO's who were clearly, far more excperienced and certainly had much to teach and much wisdom to impart (especially at this time - just after the declaration of war, but prior to the BoB - 'The Phony War', I believe the RAF pilots refer to it as).
I can imagine how some young 'Public School upstart' might consider himself a little 'too good' to be taking orders, or instruction from a 'mere Sergeant'! They are obviously some of those who 'failed' (got the 'Bowler Hat');D

Although, in Wellum's account, the Sergeant was the Boss, in no uncertain terms, and on a number of occasions, he was yelled at or scolded for not doing as well as was expected in a particular exercise etc.

A curious arrangement, if you ask me. I think if an Airman reaches a point where he is able to instruct, he should be promoted to a Rank commensurate with the respect he is due as an Instructor!  ;D

[Hagar]

Hi Brensec. I think I was probably the first person on this forum to read First Light. My daughter gave it to me for Father's Day & I've been recommending it to everyone ever since.

It was quite common for instructors to be NCOs. The atmosphere would be completely different at a flying school in a one-to-one instructor/pupil environment. The instructor would be god, whatever his rank. Any problems & the pupil would soon be packing his kit. The problem arose later on in operational squadrons when NCOs, who were often giving orders in action due to their experience, were considered beneath contempt & ignored by some officers, usually the lower ranking rookies.

PS. This is obviousy not the ideal situation - especially if you're the unfortunate Sergeant Pilot with one of these stuck-up officers as your wingman. From what I've read they often didn't last too long & sometimes failed to return from their first mission.

[ozzy72]

G'day, Hagar.  

I wonder how much of an impact the fact that these 'upstarts' (as I referred to them) didn't return from missions, or escaped by the skin of their teeth,
had on those that followed,
You would think that the attitude, after a reasonably short period, would change when it became obvious that those who ignored or resented orders 'from below' were endangered or lost.  ???

We all know that you can't tell many of the 'younger generation' (we were all the same ) anything if they have their own opinion or idea of how, what, where and why. Especially when dealing with a 'certain breed' of 'priveledged' young officer, but I just would have thought that when it comes to War, and the reality of the life and death finality of one's mistakes, their would have been a bit more respect for those who had survived what was obviously a very dangerous occupation, for any period of time.  ;D

As the Yanks say....................Go figure!  ;)

P.S. I'm about half way through the book, and I think it's probably the best read I've come across in quite some time. I was quite surprised when I got the copy. I dodn't know anything about it or who wrote it.
To come across a 'memoir' of a WWII fighter pilot that has been written so recently (I think 2002 publishing date on mine), is unusual. The bloke must be in his 80's.

For those interested, he started to 'kind of' write it over 20 years ago, from a collection of diary like notes and writings he made at the time in question. It has taken that time (on and off) to come up with the book in its form. It really is an interesting and thoroughly entertaining read for anyone interested in the period, or any kind of 'adventure' type yarn.  ;D

[Woodlouse2002]

I think I must have been second to read it on these forums as I got it for my birthday a week or so after fathers day. It is a very good read and I greatly enjoyed it. I was greatly amused when I saw it in the bookshop with "the top 10 best seller" written on the front when it was number 11 on the chart.

[Hagar]

Hi Brensec. On the subject of First Light, I'd never heard of Geoffey Wellum before my daughter gave me his book. It gives an insight into the training which I haven't read about before. I think it's all the better for taking all this time to write. I'm just hoping he can come up with part 2. I won't spoil it for you by saying what that will cover.

So many "autobiographies" published in the late '40s & '50s were actually written by ghost writers & in my judgment veered into a little fantasy at times. I've actually seen the same unique incident attributed to 2 different famous & respected pilots in their biogs. I imagine this was to make them appear more exciting to the average reader. Some were rewritten properly & published under different titles much later.

I think attitudes to NCO pilots varied depending on the squadron. I think the University Air Squadrons were the ones originally run like gentleman's clubs. I reckon an NCO pilot would get a rough time in some of these at the start of WWII. It probably soon improved when the personnel changed & the BoB proper began.

[ozzy72]

The book's actually taken a while for me to get into. I actually got it from Ozzy, who kindly sent me a copy, which he picked up when he was in England, as a sort of 'thank you' for some Vegemite that I saved his life with..............lol  ;D

I began to read it not long after I receved it, but then became ill, so I had to shelve it for a while. Should be finished in the next couple of days. I understand it only goes to the point after he returns from  the Malta campaign. (I have that common, but peculiar habit of reading the last page or two, before I start a book, and this is what I seem to have discovered then.  ;D

While on the subject of 'Gentlemen's clubs' and similar class related issues, one thing I have never come across or heard about is any kind of 'snobbery' with regard to RAF personnel and, for instance, Australian and NZ Pilots (or other 'Colonials', for that matter).

It was quite rife in the Army, as is well documented in both wars (probably more particularly WWI, but still.......). There were apparently those Officers that considered that an Australian 'larrikin' couldn't possibly be a 'leader' or anything else which required the 'gentlemanly' prerequisites only learnt in English 'Public Schools.
But not so in the RAF, at least, I' ve never come across such an account.  ;D

[Hagar]

First Light was the first book I've come across in a long time that I literally couldn't put down. I found Mr Wellum's style witty & refreshing after trawling through some interesting but extremely dull books by other authors recently.

Strange you should mention the Commonwealth aircrews. I could be wrong & if so please correct me but I think that, apart from a few notable exceptions, most ended up in Bomber & Coastal Command squadrons. These were run differently to the fighter squadrons whose members considered themselves the elite. Another thing occurred to me about aircraft with more than one crew member. NCO pilots also flew these aircraft. In most cases, but not necessarily all, the pilot was the Captain. This situation would be very different from the fighter boys & I think these crews had a special rapport. They must have done in order to operate the aircraft effectively.

[ozzy72]

If memory serves me, there were a number of Australian and New Zealand Fighter pilots who took part in the BoB (I'm not sure of the numbers, I'm having a look around to see if i can find anything). They were, more often than not, candidates from the "Empire Training Scheme".

[Woodlouse2002]

I remember at the the of the Battle of Britain they give you statistic sheets of the number of pilots who fought, and died for all the nationalitys that took part however many, or few pilots there were from that particular nation.

[ozzy72]

OK Hagar, I suppose when you say "a few noteable exceptions", you are probably correct, in so far as there were 30 Australian Fighter Pilots during the BoB (but then, that's 2.5 Squadrons). But there were as many Australians in the RAF as there were in the RAAF (450), at the time. Obviously, as Japan had not joined the War, 'Mother Britain' was in need of oyr services.

Of the 30, 10 were killed. Also 10 were killed in 'The Battle for France/Europe, from the original 40. the remaining 30 continued to fly through the BoB.

[quote]Ten Australian RAF fighter pilots were killed in the Battle of Europe. The 30 who survived took an active part in the Battle of

[Hagar]

Please don't think I'm treating the contribution of volunteers from Commonwealth & other Allied nations lightly. I've read of many instances where men of all nations made their own way to Britain (at their own expense & sometimes with extreme difficulty) to fight for the old "Mother" country in her hour of need. How they were used when they got here is a different story. Knowing how the Air Ministry worked at that time they might not have known what to do with them when they arrived. Unless they were highly experienced trained pilots I don't think they would have automatically been chosen for fighter squadrons, no matter how short of pilots they might have been. Many of the original 617 (Dambuster) Squadron members were Australians. These crews were hand-picked by Guy Gibson himself as the very best of the best.

[ozzy72]

Hi Bren and Hagar, well I thought I'd pop back in to this thread and see what all the excitement was all about
Agreed all the pilots involved in the BoB were brave men (on both sides).
For an excellent insight into the attitude of certain 'public schoolboy' pilots and 'grammar schoolboy' pilots to their NCO pilots an excellent TV movie was Over Here (you might be able to catch it on BBC America, anyone got it?), this was based on the book Buddy And Chum, but is v.accurate, and v.funny.
Martin Clunes as the Group Captain practically steals the show
The public schoolboy brigade tended to look down on NCOs as a lower form of life, whereas the grammar school mob tended to be more receptive to 'the common man'.
I was reading a book ages back on the war in the Pacific, and there was an interesting paper from some Admirals notes (I can't remember which) about his aviators, and he observed that most of his NCO pilots had enough savvy to command a wing, whilst most of his university graduate pilots couldn't find the head (why do the Navy call toilets this?) with a map and compass!
The ultimate test is, of course, can you fly?

Ozzy

PS. Glad you're liking F.L. Bren

PPS. For those of you that are curious, men from the following countries flew and died in the BoB for the allied cause (in alphabetical order);
America, Australia, Belgium, Britain, Canada, Czechoslovakia, France, Ireland, Jamaica, New Zealand, Palestine, Poland, Rhodesia, and South Africa

[Professor Brensec]

Yes, Woody, we are very proud of our involvement (ad maxima) in the Dambusters raid.

I imagine that's why Australia ended up getting "G for George" for our Australian War Memorial museum.

Which reminds me, SHE'S BACK!!!!