Exaggeration!! tsk tsk tsk

[ozzy72]

I found this below a table of kills 'Actual versus Claimed' between Japanese and Australian pilots during WWII in the Pacific theatre (Northern Territory - Darwin - defence of).

The variation between claimed and actual losses illustrate the tendency of pilots on both sides to over claim the number of aircraft shot down. Simple analysis of the data indicates pilots on both sides overclaimed by approximately a factor of 4. This is a similar level to that found in the 'Battle of Britain and other air battles where relatively large numbers of aircraft are in close combat.

How much of this was due to actual error or confusion due to the pace of battle, and how much is due to (to put it nicely) 'wishful thinking'??

[HawkerTempest5]

This happened during the Battle of Britain where both sides over estimated, for whatever reason, the true number of kills. I find it hard to imagine that it was easy, if at all possible, to keep accurate scores in the heat of a battle.

[Hagar]

This has always seemed perfectly understandable to me. Their whole object was to shoot down as many enemy aircraft as possible & it's not unreasonable to suppose that several would be shooting at the same one, maybe not at the same time.

If you read any fighter pilot's account (either world war) of what it was like in action they all say the same thing. One second the air is full of aircraft buzzing around in all directions & the next they're all alone in the sky with no idea of where they were or how they got there. How those guys had the bottle to do this every single day for years I can't possibly imagine. That's the lucky ones who survived of course.

[Polynomial]

firstly, where is the table?

and i agree with Hagar, in the heat of battle you squirt bullets at whatever came in your sights and if you hit well who know what could have happened and then you had multiple people shooting and singular aircraft.  What ever happens though, we must remember that in the end they did defend our home countries and stop the onslaught of the enemy.

[ozzy72]

Please don't forget the two rules of fighter kills;
Divide all numbers from a fighter pilot by 4
Divide all numbers from a naval pilot by 27

[ATI_7500]

hm,but if you have a wingman,who can watch the battle from a safe distance,your number of kills can be very accurate.

[BFMF]

I dunno 'bout you, but i'd rather have my wingman watching my back instead of taking pictures from a safe distance

[ATI_7500]

if my flying skills were those of h.j. marseille,i wouldn't need a wingman.  ;D

[farmerdave]

I am currently reading a book on JG26.  it says that the ratio of claims to actual kiils were usually 2:1 or more.  The military would then record the more realistic statistic and use it in the official records, and use the inflated number for public relations purposes.

[Polynomial]

[quote]I am currently reading a book on JG26.

[Professor Brensec]

All fair comment, people. (My purpose wasn't to 'ridicule' or 'take anything away from' these brave prople, on both sides). I just noticed the factor of 4, and thought "Gee, that's a pretty big difference, even for the heat of battle".  ;D

That means that a cliam of 12, really, on average, meant 3.  :o

My other reason for posting this was that I was always under the impression that a 'conformed kill' wasn't awarded unless it was born out by a 'witness' or a gun camera.  ???

[Professor Brensec]

firstly, where is the table?

http://www.pacificspitfires.com/history_air_raids.html

[Woodlouse2002]

[quote]


My other reason for posting this was that I was always under the impression that a 'conformed kill' wasn't awarded unless it was born out by a 'witness' or a gun camera.

[Hagar]

I think during the BoB a "confirmed" kill had to be witnessed by another pilot or someone on the ground. The aircraft had to be seen to crash for a kill to be confirmed.

Tactics are all very well in theory but often work out differently in practice. What happens if your wingman gets bounced & has his own fight on his hands? The less experienced pilots were often taken on as wingmen by the most experienced (someone had to try & show them the ropes) & often got quickly separated when the action started. From what I've read on air to air combat involving any sort of numbers it usually ended up with every man for himself. Unless you were prepared to follow a victim down & actually watch it hit the ground or sea (not a good idea) it would be impossible to know for certain if it had crashed or got away.

[Woodlouse2002]

Also, with the Battle of Britain it was the BF109's standard evasive manuver to open up his throttle and dive steeply. The means that the attacking aircraft would see the plane heading earthwards emitting lots of smoke from its exhausts. Meant for a lot of confusion.