Pearl Harbor Day...

[Ivan]

There is a big row going on in hawaii about the Arizona memorial, enviromentalists are worried that the oil tanks will rupture, spilling all the leftover fuel in the bay.
Only it's forbidden by law to pump it out.

Wasn't the Missouri in the gulf in 1991? with some veterans to operate the main guns for a showdown

[Woodlouse2002]

Let the poor souls that died on that day rest in peace (not the japanese pilots that died that day though).

For some inexplicable reason this sentance makes me really angry.

The Japanise pilots who died in the attack deserve our respect just as much as the american sailors. They were all service men acting under orders and one dead soldier deserves the same respect as another regardless of side, race and origin.

[Felix/FFDS]

[quote]
Didn't either Billy Mitchell or James Doolittle warn of

[tvale80]

There is a big row going on in hawaii about the Arizona memorial, enviromentalists are worried that the oil tanks will rupture, spilling all the leftover fuel in the bay.
Only it's forbidden by law to pump it out.

Wasn't the Missouri in the gulf in 1991? with some veterans to operate the main guns for a showdown

The USS Missouri did see action in the first persian gulf war,

[BFMF]

The Japanise pilots who died in the attack deserve our respect just as much as the american sailors. They were all service men acting under orders and one dead soldier deserves the same respect as another regardless of side, race and origin.

True, it's the people who ordered the attack. Those pilots were just doing what they were told. They were probably brainwashed

They might not have even known that the attack occured before they officially declared war on us.

[Felix/FFDS]

True, it's the people who ordered the attack. Those pilots were just doing what they were told. They were probably brainwashed

As do all combat pilots.

They might not have even known that the attack occured before they officially declared war on us.

Immaterial.  They had been at war, with China, for several years by then, and the US embargo on oil to Japan was seen as an aggression.  Whether the pilots knew of the diplomatic maneouverings or not really doesn't come to play.  None of the pilots was going to "back off" to give the diplomats "one more chance at peace".

Remember - the Russo-Japanese war (1905) was started the same way - with an endeclared naval attack on the Russian fleet, so the 'nicety' of a declaration of war was not considered necessary, let alone desirable.

[pete]

[quote]Mitchell was court-martialled for sticking to his beliefs.

[Felix/FFDS]

[quote]

Getting into trouble for your beliefs runs in the family ... he was a grand uncle of mine .. though had he known of the link to such a person as me I'm sure history would have been different. For a start he'd have been telling everyone he knew of the link

[Professor Brensec]

True, it's the people who ordered the attack. Those pilots were just doing what they were told. They were probably brainwashed

They might not have even known that the attack occured before they officially declared war on us.

In 'defence' of the Japanese 'powers that be/were', there was supposed to be a declaration delivered to the appropriate US representative, giving the 'unofficial' 30 minute 'warning'.
It was apparently 'held up' because, being a Sunday, there was no typist in the Japanese embassy and it was typed in 'single finger' fashion by a subordinate diplomat. Consequently, it was delivered while the attack was well under way.
Also, not to forget the reports of 'an inbound flight of 100+ aircraft' being 'shelved' by an inexperienced lieutenant, who didn't seem to take it seriously (that in itself was probably the 30 minute warning that the should have got). I'm told that his reasons were given as either lack of confidence in the ability of the operators (who were not very well trained in it's use) and also the lack of faith in the system itself (which apparently was poor).

All this aside, I think it's pretty much considered opinion by most historians, that the US was 'well aware' of an immediate threat of an attack. It's even understood that they were probably aware of the fact that the target was Hawaii (which obviously would mean Pearl). I think the only thing they didn't know, or have a very good suspicion of, was the exact time.  ;D

Remeber, the Japanese were very surprised to find the Americans so unawares. That, plus the extremely dubious decision to bunch all the aircraft on the ground so they would be easier to guard against Japanese sabotage (rememebr that an attack wasn't expected, but an order came from somewhere to do this, and 'Japanese' sabotage was clearly given as the reason!).

Yes, it was a very well planned and executed raid, but the Japanese weren't responsible for the 'huge success' that it turned out to be (my opinion, of course).

P.S. I'll be the first to abhor the atrocities that are committed by anyone in any conflict, but given the above, I can't see the Pearl Harbour attack as the cowardly and 'infamous' act that it has (and still is sometimes) considerd to be.  ;D

[ATI_7500]

Also, not to forget the reports of 'an inbound flight of 100+ aircraft' being 'shelved' by an inexperienced lieutenant, who didn't seem to take it seriously (that in itself was probably the 30 minute warning that the should have got). I'm told that his reasons were given as either lack of confidence in the ability of the operators (who were not very well trained in it's use) and also the lack of faith in the system itself (which apparently was poor).

the flight controllers thought it was a squadron of B-17s ,coming from the USA.
and i'm sure that a whole squadron of B-17s create a radar echo as big as the one of 150 japanese aircraft,which are significantly smaller.

[Professor Brensec]

the flight controllers thought it was a squadron of B-17s ,coming from the USA.
and i'm sure that a whole squadron of B-17s create a radar echo as big as the one of 150 japanese aircraft,which are significantly smaller.

I have seen a number of programs and a couple of books that discuss the "B-17's".
I'm not sure of the facts, so I won't assert anything, but I"ve heard that they were coming from the wrong direction (how true, I don't know). I've read that there were only 6 or 8 B17's (how true, I don't know). Also it's been claimed that the Radar operator was 'certain' that what he had on his screen was a 'large force of planes that the B17's couldn't account for' but he had to defer to the Liuetenants assertion that there was nothing to be concerned about (again, how true, I don't know).

As I said, I'm not sure of any facts regarding this specific incident, only that it was/is a contentious issue when considering the 'unnatural' number of mistakes and misjudgements, any of which could have alerted the Americans to the attack (that they are said to have been expecting anyway - at least at certain levels or in certain quarters).  ;D

I would be interested in any facts or information on this particular incident, as it is a bit of a hole in issue, in terms of the amount of info available. Thanks.  :D

[ATI_7500]

what about a medal for "the longest posts in the simv forum"?

[Poseidon]

The Japanise pilots who died in the attack deserve our respect just as much as the american sailors.

Everyone who dies in a war, in a man-to-man fight deserves respect. They follow orders, they sacrifice their lives for something they believe no matter how right or wrong this may be. It deserves respect to overcome your fear and your willing to live and die for your believes.

I felt this very strongly when I read a very detailed historical project for the battle of Stallingrad. Starting the reading I was feeling sympathy for the Russians. At the end I was feeling respect for both. After the description of the battle I had the feeling there was no more  hatred between the two sides. They were people just passed from the war's cruelty, there was no time or heart to hate, just emptiness not even pain. I believe if people knew this before starting a war, world would be much better.