Fighter Aces

[Woodlouse2002]

My favorite has to be Douglas Bader. In 1942 he had 22.5 victories in two years of flying. If he wasn't shot down then he was well on the way to beating Johnsons score who took intill 1945 to reach his score. Basically Bader would have been our top scoring pilot if he either managed to escape or wasn't shot down in the first place.

[HawkerTempest5]

My favorite has to be Douglas Bader. In 1942 he had 22.5 victories in two years of flying. If he wasn't shot down then he was well on the way to beating Johnsons score who took intill 1945 to reach his score. Basically Bader would have been our top scoring pilot if he either managed to escape or wasn't shot down in the first place.

That's very likely true Woody, but you could say the same also of Robert Stamford-Tuck.
Interestingly, Colin Grey (27.5 victories) flew Spitfires right through the war, making his first kill over Dunkirk. When talking about the high scores of some of the German aces, he said that during his service he only ever had about 60 opportunities  to actually fire on another aircraft.

[Redwing]

I remember reading "Reach for the Sky"......must be at least 20 years ago now. As I recall, the Germans finally took away Bader's "tin legs" after repeated escape attempts. I believe he finally wound up at Colditz prison, until the liberation.

[BFMF]

James H. Doolittle.

Not only did he set speed records, I feel he contributed a lot to Aviation

[Professor Brensec]

Sorry, I've been offline for a couple of days. No reason, just busy with other crap. I can't have the house falling down around my ears now, can I........

Thanks for all the fresh info, and perspectives.  ;D

I realised I didn't actually list my favourite. That is of course, if I can decide on one. I really don't know. probably one of the Brits (for reasons later to be explained).

I don't know much, personally about any of them except their scores and maybe a few stories I've heard along the way.

I suppose the blokes in the BoB and shortly afterwards, were up against a 'tougher foe', in terms of experience, depth (reserves with experience and training), and of course superior or matching technology.
At the risk of getting blasted by the Americans, I will try to explain the above statement, which is a 'generalisation' on my part. Not a rule.

Of course there were US pilots in England during BoB and after. Acknowledged.
And when they came up against the Japanese, they were up against a superior fighter in overall performance, in the Zero. But it did have weaknesses that allowed the Yanks to take advantage of it, to great effect, once they became known.

The Zero's lack of armour and non-sealing tanks made it a pretty easy plane to shoot down. The US planes were far tougher and this, IMO, lent itself to making a US pilot's first mistake "possibly forgivable and survivable", because of the armour and overall strength of his Grumman (in most cases).
The British pilots were up against a far better equipped foe and we all know, the mistake made by the RAF pilot, was usually his last.

So for this reason, at least, in the earlier years, the Brits (and Commonwealth pilots) were in a tougher fight.
It wasn't really until the 'Island hopping' really got under way, that the Americans got to fly against the Japs with any kind of 'regularity'. Comparing this with the 'impossible' conditions the BoB (and after) pilots were up against, with the continual raids. They were flying 5 and 6 combat missions per day.
Your American pilot based on a US carrier, saw the Japs three times, in the space of 6 months. Coral Sea, Midway and Guadalcanal (that's if he swapped ships at least once, because no Carrier was in all three Battles).


Patiently awaiting the onslaught now...................

[HawkerTempest5]

Well Prof, that's going to get some response! In defence of US pilots, the AVG boys had it tought early on and the USAAF pilots in south east Asia saw plenty of action. Most of the big scoring US Aces came from the Pacific conflict (Bong, USAAF 40 victories, Boyington, Marine Corps, with a similar score to name just two).
I am however inclined to agree that the pilots who fought the Battle of Britain had the tougthest time of all.

[Hagar]

Oops. Now you've done it. LOL
I always thought the guys of all nations in remote theatres had the worst of it. Places like North Africa & Burma. They were usually operating in extreme conditions & equipped with outdated/inferior aircraft & lack of spares/supplies.

[farmerdave]

I read Boyington's autobiography about a year ago. I think his actual score was 28.  on his last mission he was tied with Joe Foss and was being pressured to pass his score. He got two kills over Rabaul before he was shot down by a Tony and picked up by a japanese sub.


As for my favorite ace, it would probably be Marion Carl(16.5), "Tex" Hill, Foss(26), or Bauer(11).

[Professor Brensec]

As I was careful to state, these were my personal observations. In no way a rule, as far as individual areas or circumstances ar concerned.  ;D

I do think that 'overall', the early European Theatre, i.e. BoB, Nth Africa and the Med, were a tougher place to be a fighter pilot than the first twelve months (at least) of the Pacific.
I think my comment regarding the 3 'initial' battles that took place in the Pacific (save Pearl and Wake, which in all fairness, weren't "battles" per se), basically paints the picture of the Carrier Fighter Pilot's life, for the first year.
Of course there would have been small 'skirmishes' in S.E. Asia etc, but by and large, their really wasn't alot going on.
I'm not mentioning the USAAF, simply because as far as I know, there wasn't really any 'noteable' action in the first year. It didn't really get going for the USAAF until Guadalcanal, and that was a relatively limited 'caper' in terms of the number of airmen involved. (Actually, I think most were Marine Pilots).

P.S. Are Marine Pilots (in WWII) attached to the USAAF or USN in any way, or were they an "Outfit" all to themselves? Did they ever fly from Carriers or were they delegated to SeaBee built (or captured) airfields?

As Hawk said, the AVG in China would have been more comparable to the level of action and competiion as experienced in early Europe.
Of course, the later years in Europe, especially after the Invasion, were a completely different story for the US fighter pilots, both attack and escort.

As someone has also said, I imagine the relatively 'comfortable' living or billet conditions for British Pilots in BoB and after, would have been "utter bloody luxury" (in Yorkshire accent) , compared to the Yanks in the Pacific or S.E. Asia.  ;D

[Professor Brensec]

I read "Reach for the Sky" many years ago, as I said but I don't recall if this bit is true or not:

I have heard a story about the Germans allowing a plane to fly over 'unmolested' to drop a pair of legs for Bader, as his were damaged when he was shot down.

I know he parachuted. I recall his account of his getting shot down, included in the book, but is this bit about the new legs true?  
I imagine his 'tin legs' could have been damaged on landing on the ground. They certainly wouldn't have been designed for that kind of impact.  

[Hagar]

There are lots of stories about Bader. As with other aces & war heroes some were pure wartime propaganda to keep up public morale. These were often embellished in their "autobiographies" published soon after WWII. These were mainly written by ghost writers & it's often difficult to separate myth from the truth. The proper autobiographies published many years later are probably more accurate.

It's a while since I read "Reach for the Sky" or saw the excellent film based on it starring Kenneth More as Bader. I think it's probably true that Bader had to unstrap one tin leg or broke the harness while escaping from his damaged aircraft. When this was discovered back home, Bomber Command allegedly dropped replacement legs, possibly while on the way to another target. He was regarded as a troublemaker & tried several unsuccessful escape attempts. Naturally

[Professor Brensec]

Hagar wrote:

PS. Brensec. Here's one story I've never heard before. http://pages.zdnet.com/hookares/royal-n ... /id36.html  
Strangely enough it's by an Aussie. I think you're possibly the only person here who will have the patience to read it through carefully. The man himself was an enigma & stranger things have happened. Maybe he liked it that way & this is just another fascinating mystery.  

I just read this, mate. A very interesting read, to say the least.
My personal view is that his account is true. He said himself, at 80 years of age and in no need of 'reflected glory' from Bader, what would be his motive, otherwise?

I don't think the legs were the reason for Bader's presence in Liverpool in 1942. After all, German ingenuity and craftsmanship being what it was (and is), there would be no need for new legs or old repairs to be done in England. In my opinion, the German ones would probably have been better. And I think they would have gone to the trouble.

I have emailed him and said that I feel his account to be true. But I will also keep an eye on the page in future, to see if any light is shed, one way or another.

Thanks for the link, mate.  

[Hagar]

I don't think the legs were the reason for Bader's presence in Liverpool in 1942. After all, German ingenuity and craftsmanship being what it was (and is), there would be no need for new legs or old repairs to be done in England. In my opinion, the German ones would probably have been better. And I think they would have gone to the trouble.

I have to agree on that point. On thinking about this I'm a little surprised that Bader was not repatriated. This would have been the ideal way for the Germans to rid themselves of a troublesome prisoner. I don't think it would have suited him or the British authorities. It would have meant being confined to a desk & taking no further part in the hostilities. I'm sure he was too proud & determined to accept this even if the offer had been made.

[Professor Brensec]

Hagar, I think you're right about the fact that Bader would probably have not accepted a 'desk bound' repat if offered.
Would they have repatriated an Ace Pilot if he was clearly able to fly again? No, of course not, unless it was for a relatively equal swap. And it's obvious that Bader would have been able to contiue to fly.

I really don't know how effective or honoured these 'gentlmen's agreements' would have been in that sort of area. ("We'll let Doug go home if he promises not to fly or train pilots or advise or anything that would work against the German war effort". I don't think so, somehow!..............